Let's abolish religion!

Originally Posted by Manton

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This thread may as well be entitled "Let's abolish gravity."

FTFY

Originally Posted by SField

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Just because things have developed through "religion", (but moreso the power structure thereof - not the actual faith), doesn't mean that we need these things anymore. We have proof that all the social and infrastructural elements you mentioned can exist quite well without fairy tales.

You seem like a bright kid, but like many highly intelligent people, your grasp of what makes us fully human is distorted gravely by a proud, yet deluded hyper-rationality.

Originally Posted by eg1

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You seem like a bright kid, but like many highly intelligent people, your grasp of what makes us fully human is distorted gravely by a proud, yet deluded hyper-rationality.

I don't necessarily agree. I am not proposing legislation against religion. Typically, legislations against issues which stem from such fundamental parts of humanity fail. Most cardinal sins like murder and theft are avoided by having a stable and balanced society, not only through legislation. It would also be un-american and completely undemocratic. We know that religion is most prevalent among less educated, low income groups of people. We know that in socities with high literacy rates, low unemployment and good median income have less tendancies towards a large religious complex.

I've seen more than enough examples of people living full, generous and balanced lives without religion, and I'm convinced that it can gradually go away as we improve ourselves as a society. Currently the disparity in wealth is far too wide a gulf, and our schools are far too poor. I see the disappearance of religion as a fringe benefit to becoming a more enlightened, advanced and civilized country. I don't want anything radical to happen, I want the process to be organic. People realize the stupidity of their chosen fairy tales as they begin to read more than just a bible verse every sunday. There remains no evidence whatsoever that religion makes one morally superior or even better equipped to be a moral person. The stupidity and gullability required to buy into religion is something that affects all things, and dumbs down the world in general.

A guy once told me that he loved Richard Dawkins because he is the greatest atheist thinker of this generation.

I laughed at him.

Originally Posted by Fuuma

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Is this the under 12 y/o version of the already marsupialed religion threads we had in the CE? Without religion they wouldn't sell those Nuns outfits made of leather at your favourite sex shop, think about that.


This is a very good point. +1

Originally Posted by SField

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I've seen more than enough examples of people living full, generous and balanced lives without religion, and I'm convinced that it can gradually go away as we improve ourselves as a society. Currently the disparity in wealth is far too wide a gulf, and our schools are far too poor. I see the disappearance of religion as a fringe benefit to becoming a more enlightened, advanced and civilized country. I don't want anything radical to happen, I want the process to be organic.
I hear what you are saying, but the problem seems, at least to me, that what you advocate as an organic process is really a sort of exogenously created shift. It is not organic as much as it is simply done with less force than what the OP suggests.

People realize the stupidity of their chosen fairy tales as they begin to read more than just a bible verse every sunday.

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If this were true, how would you explain the fact that we hold on to, and develop, an awful lot of new fairy tales to hold dear as we become more and more educated?

You'd cream your pink pants reading Aron's The opiate of the intellectuals (hint: it's about communism).

Originally Posted by iammatt

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If this were true, how would you explain the fact that we hold on to, and develop, an awful lot of new fairy tales to hold dear as we become more and more educated?

I don't think that any of the common religions of today are very new, except for what Joseph Smith came up with. Most theology is quite old, and is either becoming more fundamentalist, or bending and compromising due to societal pressures. The basis for all the magical unicorns and bearded fairies are essentially the same, so I don't see what's new.

I don't quite catch your drift on the first point. Europe has become much more secular and I don't think it has come at any cost of morality or national security. Infact, the largest influx of religion is comming from muslim immigrants and refugees. All I'm proposing is doing something that should happen anyways. Upgrade our schools to the point where they are competitive with what you'd find with the Japanese, Korean, Swiss et al... is that a fundamental shift, yes, it kind of is. But it's the kind of shift that's necessary.

Originally Posted by SField

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Europe has become much more secular.
I think "much more" is too strong a qualifier. It varies from country to country. For example, England's church attendance is down dramatically from a century ago but Ireland's (the RoI's) has not seen such a marked decrease.

Originally Posted by iammatt

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If this were true, how would you explain the fact that we hold on to, and develop, an awful lot of new fairy tales to hold dear as we become more and more educated?

My best guess is that when one abolishes any belief in a higher power the only thing that guides ones life is his or her own responsibility for it, which is an awesome responsibility that as far I can see not many people are prepared to deal with..

Originally Posted by nootje

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My best guess is that when one abolishes any belief in a higher power the only thing that guides ones life is his or her own responsibility for it, which is an awesome responsibility that as far I can see not many people are prepared to deal with..

Working absolutely great for quite a number of people.

Originally Posted by SField

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Working absolutely great for quite a number of people.
+1.

Originally Posted by SField

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I don't quite catch your drift on the first point. Europe has become much more secular and I don't think it has come at any cost of morality or national security. Infact, the largest influx of religion is comming from muslim immigrants and refugees. All I'm proposing is doing something that should happen anyways. Upgrade our schools to the point where they are competitive with what you'd find with the Japanese, Korean, Swiss et al... is that a fundamental shift, yes, it kind of is. But it's the kind of shift that's necessary.

An interesting point you make here. the last 20 years the schooling system in my country has been given more and more budget, but the results have been counter productive.. Mostly, and so far I stand alone on this point, this has been because the shift from a more theory oriented program to a more practical one... sigh... With this, kids from my generation and later seem to lack a proper theoretical grounding to make certain moral decisions, and thus look for the media to provide them, which offcourse has its consequences.. Not really ontopic but its something to consider when one upgrades their schools...

Originally Posted by SField

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I don't think that any of the common religions of today are very new, except for what Joseph Smith came up with. Most theology is quite old, and is either becoming more fundamentalist, or bending and compromising due to societal pressures. The basis for all the magical unicorns and bearded fairies are essentially the same, so I don't see what's new.

Fuuma alludes to my point above, but more specifically, while few religions are new, the ability to worship is not exclusive to those praying only to God. What is going on in this country now is pretty good proof of that. We now worship our own supposed ability to perfect man, and to engineer him into a more perfect beast, against all evidence to the contrary. It is our new fatal conceit, and no more ridiculous, or more wrapped up in myth, than are most religions.

I don't quite catch your drift on the first point. Europe has become much more secular and I don't think it has come at any cost of morality or national security. Infact, the largest influx of religion is comming from muslim immigrants and refugees. All I'm proposing is doing something that should happen anyways. Upgrade our schools to the point where they are competitive with what you'd find with the Japanese, Korean, Swiss et al... is that a fundamental shift, yes, it kind of is. But it's the kind of shift that's necessary.

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My point is that if you want subculture X to become more rational and less religious through an organic process, you really have to wait for them to do it. What you want is for another group in the same society to change something from outside in order to prod them on your way. I am not saying that your goal is bad in any way, just that it really isn't an organic process, it is a managed one.

Originally Posted by iammatt

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My point is that if you want subculture X to become more rational and less religious through an organic process, you really have to wait for them to do it.
Isn't that what someone means by "organic process?"

Originally Posted by Connemara

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Isn't that what someone means by "organic process?"
Yes, which is my point, but it is not what SField is really suggesting.