To AE haters: Sator's pictorial comparison of AE, EG, and Vass lasts - consolidated

After briefly mention it in the "Stuff that Styleforvm overrates", I received several PMs inquiring further details. As such, in the interest of disclosure and future reference, I have quoted the relevant posts below. Courtesy to, of course, Sator.

Originally Posted by Sator

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I must say I always find this putting down of Allen Edmonds here as not being sufficiently elegant to be incomprehensible. So to illustrate my point I thought I would place my Park Avenues side by side with a pair of Edward Green Chelseas on the 202 last:

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I have shown them from three slightly different angles as some shots show one pair or the other from a slight angle.

I think people look at the price tag and suddenly see "blobby" and "inelegant" because AEs are less expensive.

Originally Posted by Sator

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As blobby as the Vass F last perhaps?

Originally Posted by Sator

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Just to complete the coup, I thought I would throw in a comparison of the Vass F last with the AE Nr 8 last. The number 8 has a sleeker, more pointed toe profile than the Nr 5 although the difference is subtle.

Originally Posted by Sator

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Lastly, here are AE Nr 8 lasts vs the EG 82 last in C width (with E being medium). Even here the EGs fail to trump the AEs like I thought they would:

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The top view is only one single aspect of a shoe's shape

I thought the beef with AE is their use of a 360 degree welt, not so much the shape of the lasts.

To add to the comparisons, from jcusey at AAAC comparing Alden and EG.

Originally Posted by jcusey

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The first pair of good shoes that I ever bought were Alden dark brown half brogue bals (model #913, Hampton last). For a couple of years, I wore them twice a week or more, and I always thought that they were both good-looking and extremely comfortable. In time, though, I began to acquire more shoes; and the novelty wore off of my 913s. They came out of the closet less and less; and until recently, I probably hadn't worn them in four or five years. Well, I've been going through something of an Alden phase recently, and I thought that it would be a shame to put my Alden shoes in heavy rotation without bringing these out once again. I'm glad that I did.

One of the big knocks on Alden is that their lasts are inelegant, ugly, and brutal. I probably have even written something like that before. Well, that might be a fair evaluation of Barrie and Trubalance; but it's not true for all Alden lasts. When I put my 913s on, I was struck by just how shapely they were. Elegant, even. Compare it, for example, to Edward Green's bread-and-butter round-toe last, the 202:

The Alden shoe is below, and the EG shoe (the Cadogan model) is on top. To be honest, 202 isn't my favorite EG last, but it's certainly not bad. Hampton can certainly hold its own. The toe is smarter than on the 202, and I really like the exaggerated swing from the ball to the toe of the Hampton. It's really a pretty last, particularly with a cap-toe like 913.

I think fans of ae's are more inclined to like EG's more geriatrically oriented lasts like the 202, etc and vice versa. But fans of EG's 888 last, or Vass U last, are probably not as big a fans of the EG's rounder lasts such as the 202, etc. Thus the same would hold true for Vass' F, Lobb's 7000 and certain C&J's round benchgrade lasts and AE's lasts in general. Perhaps I am only speeking for myself but I know that's how I feel.

Originally Posted by Tarmac

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The top view is only one single aspect of a shoe's shape

Exactly. I only have one pair of AEs, on their No. 8 last, and while it is a nice enough shoe and a retail value, it is noticably cruder in how it is is put together compared to more expensive shoes. The shape from angles other than a top down view is also, as is often said, "blobby" compared to, say, more expensive Northampton product, particularly around the instep and heels. I mean, why should it be comparable? It is made as a less expensive product.

Even if the top down view seems similar, I doubt anyone would confuse an AE with a Vass F last on the foot.

Nonetheless, I wear my one AE with pleasure. It's a good shoe, honestly made at its price. I don't plan on getting any more AEs, though.

Frankly, if I look at bespoke Cleverley's or Foster's, the refinement of their lines is quite beyond anything I own RTW, and I own some nice shoes. So, unfortunately, there are real attributes that only spending more can get.

Whether that is worth it to you is another question entirely.


- B

Part of the attraction about clothing/shoe items cannot be strictly defined; it is very subjective. Even when presented with exact and even scientific, objective data people will still cling to personal believes and likes.

That's why beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Some like AE, some like EG, some hate this and some hate that. Let's just leave it at that. At least the debates keep forum like this going.

Alright, here's a on old photograph just to show a generally what I am talking about:



The AE is in the center top, the blind brogue wholecut in chestnut on the No. 8 last. It is surrounded by various EGs, Sutor, Kiton, and Saint Crispin's.

You can see at this angle that the AE is kind of balloon-y compared to the others (look particularly at the left shoe...on your right, of course), and this is AE's "sleekest" last. The line down the shoe is almost completely straight.


- B

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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You can see at this angle that the AE is kind of balloon-y compared to the others (look particularly at the left shoe...on your right, of course), and this is AE's "sleekest" last. The line down the shoe is almost completely straight.


- B

That might be true a few years ago (probably not true even further back, some vintage AEs I've seen are amazing), but definitely not true now, with their recent introduction of new styles, as well as the "Seven" line.


Jackson, Tan Grain Calf

Bel Air, Walnut Calf


Pictures posted by Marty M., who is also a member here, at the Fedora Lounge.

Yeah that pic illustrates a very common aspect of AEs. Nothing objectively wrong with that shape, but it is a difference.

Here is a westgate wholecut, a shoe which I like, but with no design on it, it's very obvious.



Here is a peal wholecut, which isn't even particularly well-regarded here. The shape is way more "sculpted"

The first pic shows quite clearly what I have always hated about the Park Avenue - I have always thought the toe cap was too small, e.g. too far towards the toe. With the rather wide forefoot, the toe of the shoe looks like a snubbed off nose to me.

Disclaimer - this is not intended to be a universal AE pan - I don't know enough about them to really comment strongly. But the PA bandwagon is just not one I have ever been able to get on.

Originally Posted by whacked

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That might be true a few years ago (probably not true even further back, some vintage AEs I've seen are amazing), but definitely not true now, with their recent introduction of new styles, as well as the "Seven" line.


The Seven's are the Italian-made ones, right? They do look like the vast middle ground of RTW Italian shoes, and are sleeker and pointier than the American-made AEs. The soles look all Blake-Rapid to me, though...which is fine, but I don't think they represent what most AE fans like about AEs.

If they are addressing other aspects of their shape in new Goodyear-welted shoes, that's great since it offers the AE afficianado some choices.

- B

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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The Seven's are the Italian-made ones, right? They do look like the vast middle ground of RTW Italian shoes, and are sleeker and pointier than the American-made AEs. The soles look all Blake-Rapid to me, though...which is fine, but I don't think they represent what most AE fans like about AEs. If they are addressing other aspects of their shape in new Goodyear-welted shoes, that's great since it offers the AE afficianado some choices. - B
There are some of their newer shoes, the Soho and Evanston off the top of my head, that feature the traditional AE construction and pricing on a sleeker, chisel-toe last with more of an elongated toe and sculpted waste. The AE website, typically, does a bad job of representing the shoe's true shape. A quick trip to website reveals it's the 0 last. It's not as extreme as EGs or C&Js more svelte styles for example but it is a marked difference from the perceived "bulbous" shaping of some of their more traditional stylings.

Originally Posted by robin

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I thought the beef with AE is their use of a 360 degree welt, not so much the shape of the lasts.

As far as my black AE PA are concerned, the 360 deg welt is indeed my only beef. I like shoes from a variety of makers, built on different lasts and shapes, but don't care much for a black (plain) captoe bal/oxford on a sleeker or more chiselled last.