How should a dress shirt fit

I'm new to this forum, but I've been reading a lot lately, without contributing. I do have a lot of questions about clothing, which I'm sure I can find searching around the forum, but I do have one particular one.

I am, I guess, undersized. I'm still young, 20, but I like wearing dress shirts. I have some business ones, nothing too expensive, but they all seem big. I also have some more casual dress shorts, with the best fit going to American Eagle X-Small shirts. I'm probably going to order an MLM shirt pretty soon, so I have a few questions:

• Where the crease separating your back or neck and your sleeve by? Should it be hanging down slightly on the shoulder, or should it be at the end of the collar bone (this seems to fit me best)?
  
• How much wider should a shirt be at the waist than my own waist size? I'm pretty slim, around 26.5" waist (this is the "pants/jeans measure", the actual measure is about 28.5", but pants that are 28" are about 2 inches too big), so how much wider should the shirt be?
  
• Are slim dress shirts proper for business casual or even business attire? Like I've said, my waist is abnormally small, so I very much prefer slim fit clothing, but I also don't want to look like I'm going to a club while at work.

I think that is all for now, thank you. Great forum, btw.

Originally Posted by f00kie

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[*]Where the crease separating your back or neck and your sleeve by? Should it be hanging down slightly on the shoulder, or should it be at the end of the collar bone (this seems to fit me best)?

I take it you mean the point to point, the width of the yoke in back. There is no set rule. A bit wider works for a fuller overall shirt; narrower for a trimmer shirt. You are a slim guy, so I would opt for narrower. That's what I prefer myself. Right on the collar bone sounds too narrow, however.

[*]How much wider should a shirt be at the waist than my own waist size? I'm pretty slim, around 26.5" waist (this is the "pants/jeans measure", the actual measure is about 28.5", but pants that are 28" are about 2 inches too big), so how much wider should the shirt be?

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A standard formula is to take your actual waist measurement and add six inches. that is comfortable without being too baggy. Still, you could drop down to +4 and be comfortable. +3 will start to feel tight on most people, at least when you sit down.

[*]Are slim dress shirts proper for business casual or even business attire? Like I've said, my waist is abnormally small, so I very much prefer slim fit clothing, but I also don't want to look like I'm going to a club while at work.

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As long as it's not so tight it's starting to look like spandex, sure.

What should the measurement of the sleeve be at the shoulder? (for a dress shirt).

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Manton

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A standard formula is to take your actual waist measurement and add six inches. that is comfortable without being too baggy. Still, you could drop down to +4 and be comfortable. +3 will start to feel tight on most people, at least when you sit down.


This a very helpful little trick. I have been looking for something like it..

Originally Posted by danderton5

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This a very helpful little trick. I have been looking for something like it..

Thanks for the advice.
However, after further observation, I noticed that none of my shirts (even the ones that I think fit okay) are anywhere close to this.

My waste measurement is 28.5", and the slimmest shirt I have has a waist measurement of 36". This one feels quite tight at the waist when worn untucked, with jeans and a belt. My guess then is that a dress shirt has to be bought for one purpose only: to wear it tucked in or untucked, but not both.

Also, thinking of math and assuming our body is somewhat circular, the circumference of the shirt is 2*pi*r. At 4 inches (beyond the waist measurement), that's an increase of about 0.65" all around the body. That's quite tight!

I appreciate your help, and I will probably try to go with the +4 measurement. How about the same thing for the chest area? Is it also +4, or more?

Regarding a slim fit shirt for the office:

One of the younger guys that works here is a good asset to the company, very analytical (which I'm not), but he wears very slim fitting suits, slim shirts, and shorter trousers - and he is very slight to boot. Now I'm sure this is very trendy and all the rage at clubs, but just as you mentioned, I don't find it professional, and I certainly don't go out of my way to bring him along on bigger meetings. If I were his mentor, I'd probably suggest a more classical fit to him.

^^ I really have trouble envisioning the problem here. What's the alternative, blousy BB tent-shirts? If he's slim, he should wear slim clothes.

Originally Posted by macuser3of5

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^^ I really have trouble envisioning the problem here. What's the alternative, blousy BB tent-shirts? If he's slim, he should wear slim clothes.

There's clothes that fit somewhat closely, and there's looking like you're in a punk band, know what I mean?

Just my preference, but if I were of slight build, I would try and shy away from clothes that made me look even more slight.

Originally Posted by TCN

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There's clothes that fit somewhat closely, and there's looking like you're in a punk band, know what I mean?

Just my preference, but if I were of slight build, I would try and shy away from clothes that made me look even more slight.

that's your personal preference.

I'm sure you are a reasonable guy but on the surface your statement about how you wouldn't bring him to certain meetings borders on the ridiculous. Indicative of everything wrong with "office culture" in america. If he is making a dress code violation, you or HR should mention it to him. Otherwise let him do his job...

Originally Posted by TCN

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There's clothes that fit somewhat closely, and there's looking like you're in a punk band, know what I mean? Just my preference, but if I were of slight build, I would try and shy away from clothes that made me look even more slight.
The problem you described is exactly what I want to avoid. You mentioned punk-rock-slim: I'm no where near buying those types of clothes and never will, which is why I'm asking these sorts of questions. However, because I am slim, anything I find at a store for a reasonable price (shirts under $100, I'm a student), even if labeled slim, still bunch up around the waist when tucked in. This, I think, look unprofessional. That's why, for now, I'm looking at the cheap MTM solutions on the web, and I know the first shirt would probably not be the ideal fit, but from this, the question becomes: what is the ideal fit for a dress shirt, hence the topic.

You're probably always going to see a little bit of the shirt over the waistband, unless the shirt is so skin tight it pulls at the buttons.

Originally Posted by Manton

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You're probably always going to see a little bit of the shirt over the waistband, unless the shirt is so skin tight it pulls at the buttons.

True, but the effect can be more or less elegantly executed. I find that when the waists of my shirts are taken in too much, little 1-inch sacks of cloth jut out from my waistband.

I like my shirts slim enough so that they don't look baggy, but loose enough so that there is a smooth line from my chest to my waist. To me, shape is much more important than how 'slim' a shirt is, particularly since a slimmer shirt doesn't necessarily make the wearer appear more slim.

Originally Posted by Tarmac

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that's your personal preference.

I'm sure you are a reasonable guy but on the surface your statement about how you wouldn't bring him to certain meetings borders on the ridiculous. Indicative of everything wrong with "office culture" in america. If he is making a dress code violation, you or HR should mention it to him. Otherwise let him do his job...


Don't be dense, he isn't violating a dress code, he's wearing a suit for Chrissakes, but if I don't want to bring along Sid Vicious to a meeting involving a competitive situation where at least the appearance of professionalism and like corporate cultures matter, I don't have to, and I won't.

Perhaps when I am as big of a corporate titan as you, I will trade on my reputation alone and start working on reforming corporate America from the Styleforum.

Walk around GS, Blackstone, Brown Bros., wherever you want, and tell me how many super slim suits you see.

Can someone post a picture of what they think is a perfectly fitted shirt? This must be on a person, not a mannequin. And preferably on someone that isn't as skinny as most models...

Originally Posted by TCN

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Perhaps when I am as big of a corporate titan as you, I will trade on my reputation alone and start working on reforming corporate America from the Styleforum. Walk around GS, Blackstone, Brown Bros., wherever you want, and tell me how many super slim suits you see.

Can someone post a picture of what they think is a perfectly fitted shirt? This must be on a person, not a mannequin. And preferably on someone that isn't as skinny as most models...

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there was someone that posted their jantzen a few months back, it was still wrinkly from shipping but I thought the fit was spot on. lemme try to find it. edit: here it is.