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Cabrera vs. Trout - 2012 AL MVP Debate - Page 2

Poll Results: Who should be the 2012 AL MVP?

Poll expired: Oct 10, 2012  
  • 50% (7)
    Cabrera
  • 50% (7)
    Trout
14 Total Votes  
post #16 of 33
If you adjust for park factors, Trout has been equal to Cabrera with the bat alone. Add in the fact that he's one of the best 5 or 6 defensive players in baseball, and the best baserunner in all of baseball by far, and it's really not even close. Trout just put up one of the greatest seasons of all time. The triple crown is awesome and I salute Cabrera for that, but it's more of a curiosity than an accurate measure of value. Trout in a landslide.
post #17 of 33
Trout has my vote FWIW. No contest.
post #18 of 33
when was the last time someone stole 50 bases and only got thrown out 4 times?
post #19 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_flapjack View Post

  • If you're saying Cabrera is "horrible" on defense, you are not watching the Tigers play very often. Go to ESPN and look up the fielding stats. Cabrera is 6th among 3rd basemen in fielding percentage. How is that horrible? Trout is 9th on the list of center fielders... I think if he hadn't moved positions and everyone went into the season assuming he would suck there would not be as much desire to highlight the errors.
  • I do think that Trout has had a better season in more areas of the game, but I would not be shocked if Cabrera gets the MVP because the Triple Crown is such a unique occurrence. Additionally, I think Cabrera is more valuable to the Tigers than Trout is to the Angels. The Tigers would not be in the playoffs without Cabrera, the Angels would still be watching from home without Trout.

1. Errors aren't the only measure of a player's defensive performance. Alone, its basically useless. Miggy has no range, why should he be rewarded for balls he couldn't get to? Assume there is 3B 'A' who has above average range and Miggy... Assume 2 identical screamers are hit down the line (this isn't implausible), Miggy would be unable to get to either of them and both balls would be scored as hits. Now assume 3B A who has above average range gets to both balls, on one he makes the play, on the other he doesn't set his feet and his throw sails over the 1B's head. Miggy is now at a 1.0 fielding percentage while 3B A who made an additional out has an error and a .5% fielding percentage.

2. There's really no way to quantify that. But I'll play along, without Trout the Angels might be at the bottom of the AL west- and even if they had the Mariner's record they'd still be in 3rd in the central... And of course we can't forget that the Angels were 6-14 before they called up Trout, 83-59 since. I doubt they go 6-14 if they played Trout in the beginning instead of Vermin "Paid 15 million to hit .230" Wells.

The Triple Crown argument is ridiculous. Josh Hamilton gets a sinus infection and that makes Cabrera the best player in baseball? What even distinguishes those 3 stats as being the most importance besides "historic myth" anyway? I concede that AVG and HR are essentially solely individual stats, though I believe OBP and slugging% respectively more accurate measure a player's contribution (Trout slightly leads OBP while Cabrera has a 40 point lead on slugging %). But where does baserunning factor in this equation? 49/54 SB is a pretty significant contribution, but it doesn't register in "Triple Crown" talk. Neither does runs scored, nor going from 1st to 3rd on a single (which isn't even a statistic, but is a big deal in terms of effect in a game). My real beef is with RBI though, Trout bats first, he doesn't get the same opportunities Cabrera does to drive in runs. On the flipside, Trout gets more opportunities to be driven in by others which is reflected in his runs scored stat. Both are incredibly dependent on the performances of others, which is why I don't place particular importance in either.
Edited by ConcernedParent - 10/3/12 at 10:32pm
post #20 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcernedParent View Post

1. Errors aren't the only measure of a player's defensive performance. Alone, its basically useless. Miggy has no range, why should he be rewarded for balls he couldn't get to? Assume there is 3B 'A' who has above average range and Miggy... Assume 2 identical screamers are hit down the line (this isn't implausible), Miggy would be unable to get to either of them and both balls would be scored as hits. Now assume 3B A who has above average range gets to both balls, on one he makes the play, on the other he doesn't set his feet and his throw sails over the 1B's head. Miggy is now at a 1.0 fielding percentage while 3B A who made an additional out has an error and a .5% fielding percentage.
2. There's really no way to quantify that. But I'll play along, without Trout the Angels might be at the bottom of the AL west- and even if they had the Mariner's record they'd still be in 3rd in the central... And of course we can't forget that the Angels were 6-14 before they called up Trout, 83-59 since. I doubt they go 6-14 if they played Trout in the beginning instead of Vermin "Paid 15 million to hit .230" Wells.
The Triple Crown argument is ridiculous. Josh Hamilton gets a sinus infection and that makes Cabrera the best player in baseball? What even distinguishes those 3 stats as being the most importance besides "historic myth" anyway? I concede that AVG and HR are essentially solely individual stats, though I believe OBP and slugging% respectively more accurate measure a player's contribution (Trout slightly leads OBP while Cabrera has a 40 point lead on slugging %). But where does baserunning factor in this equation? 49/54 SB is a pretty significant contribution, but it doesn't register in "Triple Crown" talk. Neither does runs scored, nor going from 1st to 3rd on a single (which isn't even a statistic, but is a big deal in terms of effect in a game). My real beef is with RBI though, Trout bats first, he doesn't get the same opportunities Cabrera does to drive in runs. On the flipside, Trout gets more opportunities to be driven in by others which is reflected in his runs scored stat. Both are incredibly dependent on the performances of others, which is why I don't place particular importance in either.

1. Understood on the range issue. I watch enough of the Tigers' infield to understand guys with a good glove and no range. My point is that Cabrera is not the abortion at 3rd base that most people make him out to be.
2. I'll agree that the Angels might not have gone 6-14 in the first 20 games with Trout, but they also might have. A decent number of those losses were blow-outs. He might have helped when it was a one run game, but probably not any more in the early blow-outs than in the ones while he was actually on the team. And prior results to not always predict future performance. Plenty of teams start hot or slow and then reverse direction.
3. I'm not saying I agree with the triple crown argument, I'm just stating what I see as a probable reason for people to favor him here. Last year the notion that Verlander was somehow going to be a more attractive candidate for the MVP if he got to the magical 25 wins rather than 24 seemed just as silly, but perception is reality. 30 teams x 9 hitters x 45 years is a LOT of chances to get it done, but somehow nobody did it for 45 years. That makes it unique enough that he'll get more support than if he didn't win it - but not as much as if he could give a good interview. And people have been getting sinus infections for a while now. Every year there's someone who COULD have done better, but didn't - or did. The dice roll where they roll. And I get that it's largely anachronistic now that we have all of the new fun stats, and that OBP might be a better measure than BA, but I'd assume most fans of the game can appreciate it for what it is.

Again, this is not a hill I'm going to die on. I see the argument for both. if Trout wins, I understand why. If Cabrera wins, I'll understand that it's because he got hot when his team needed him to and he did something that we might not see happen again until my five-year-old has kids in college.
post #21 of 33
This is a really interesting analysis from Dave Cameron at Fangraphs:
post #22 of 33
Something that Miggy should get credit for is the fact that he moved to 3B from 1B to allow for Fielder. Seems somewhat unfair to knock a guy for defense when he's at a new position so that his team can add another huge bat at 1B.
post #23 of 33
Thread Starter 
That's a fair observation but it still doesn't make up for the fact that at either 1B or 3B Cabrera is a defensive liability.
post #24 of 33
I agree that he's a defensive liability, and I'm not saying it should put him over the top. Just saying he deserves some credit for it, and no one seems to mention that.

How much credit he deserves is a difficult question to answer.
post #25 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcg View Post

I agree that he's a defensive liability, and I'm not saying it should put him over the top. Just saying he deserves some credit for it, and no one seems to mention that.
How much credit he deserves is a difficult question to answer.

I've seen it mentioned by Miggy supporters about a dozen times now in various articles floating around the web.
post #26 of 33
Admittedly, I have not performed much of a search. As a Phillies fan, I would be beyond ecstatic to have either one of them at their respective positions.
post #27 of 33
All this poll shows is that 50% of the people who voted are idiots.

Miggy is the ONLY answer to this question.
post #28 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

All this poll shows is that 50% of the people who voted are idiots.
Miggy is the ONLY answer to this question.

Idiot.
post #29 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron View Post

Idiot.
penis.
post #30 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambo View Post

TROUT!
Honestly, he's been the best player in baseball and if had those extra 20 games it wouldn't even be close. The fact that he didn't should speak volumes about where his stats are now.

Wrong. Look at his avg by month
July .392
August .284
September .257

He got worse as the season went on, (and by quite a lot) once teams had seen more of him. Another 20 games would more likely mean that he'd lose ground... which is also why I don't get why people are going crazy about him for next year. Yeah, he'll still be fast and a good fielder and hit for power... but I'd bet his avg drops down to like .290 and his steals will drop since he'll have less opportunities. He'll still be a great player but not as fucking amazing as everyone is saying... more like .290 25hr 35steals
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