conservative business dress WAYWRN: An Experiment

Originally Posted by vncrz

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I would have never considered chukka boots or pebblegrain leather to be conservative business dress, much less both together… great look however, keep the experiment going!
Well, let's be holier than the Pope, shall we? The shoes simply do not comport with conservative office style. First, they are brown. Black is the only appropriate office dress in the city. Many references could be cited, but I'll flag Nicholas Storey's History of Men's Fashion for my purposes this evening. Second, anything but an Oxford shoe is in error. A derby simply will not do. Plenty of support for this among the classicists, so no need for a citation. Third, the pebble-grain is inappropriate. And finally, as noted, there's no way in hell a pocket square is conservative business dress. Judge not lest ye be judged Manton! That having been said, I'm still a fan ....

Good thread. Hope some UCBD will sneak in from time to time.

Originally Posted by J. Cogburn

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And finally, as noted, there's no way in hell a pocket square is conservative business dress.

You're confusing conservative business dress with UCBD.

I'd agree that a derby is best saved for more casual wear, such as a sport coat. On the fence about brown, but then that's the Italian side in me.

Originally Posted by Panzeraxe II

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Nice to have you back Manton.

+ 1, I for one always appreciated your fits, so nice to see you posting them again. Those shoes are really fantastic, I don't see that color much in pebble grain but I like it a great deal.

Originally Posted by TRINI

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You're confusing conservative business dress with UCBD.
Don't think so. Manton skewers UCBD in some epic thread I can't be bothered to locate at the moment, and rightly so. IIRC, UCBD is dressing to show no originality, no individuality, nothing that might raise even the slightest eye-brow ... absolutely nothing that might draw attention to one's self. In short, fade into the background style to the greatest extent possible. That's an entirely different beast. That would mean more restrictive rules than conservative business dress. Say ... no blue suits (they stand out way too much today in a world swimming in charcoal grays) and nothing in grey save for plain worsted cloth (no pattern, no interesting weave, nothing but clean & matted), nothing but small pattern foulards in dark red, mid-to-dark blue, or madder-esque yellow, nothing that suggests any exceptional tailoring work, and nothing but a white shirt, point collar, and black socks. I'm not trying to press those standards into service here. I'm simply pointing out that if conservative is to have any meaning in the office, it needs to stay within classic London dress boundaries. Do not mistake any of this as a case for that sort of restrictive dress code; it's not my style. But perhaps Manton should relabel his standard MCBD (Modern American Conservative Business Dress) - a label that is a bit more precise.

Originally Posted by UrbanComposition

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I'd agree that a derby is best saved for more casual wear, such as a sport coat.

I think it's funny that I was (as far as I know) the first to assert this on any forum and it provoked a furor. I cited it only as an ancient rule, FWIW, not something that has to be followed today, or that I follow. Though I mostly used to. Not because of the rule but because I didn't like derbies.

On the fence about brown, but then that's the Italian side in me.

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I don't get this. The Italians wear brown with everything.

Originally Posted by Manton

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I don't get this. The Italians wear brown with everything.

I think he meant he likes the brown, but is on the fence because black would have been the conservative business dress choice, Manton.

Mike

Very glad to see this thread!

I would guess for the average poster/lurker here, the question is not 'what's required' but rather 'what can I get away with while still being highly appropriate for a business environment'.

It seems to me that there is a difference between what is modern conservative dress in London vs. north american large cities, and perhaps even between cities in north america. It is, for example, my impression that while a few still dislike it, brown shoes are generally accepted with suits as day to day business wear in most of north america, but not in London.

That sort of difference is extremely useful to understand for those of us who travel, and might otherwise be surprised by shifting standards.

Originally Posted by Manton

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I think it's funny that I was (as far as I know) the first to assert this on any forum and it provoked a furor. I cited it only as an ancient rule, FWIW, not something that has to be followed today, or that I follow. Though I mostly used to. Not because of the rule but because I didn't like derbies. I don't get this. The Italians wear brown with everything.
I don't think the rule is ancient at all. I've come across it a number of times in various contemporary essays about classic men's style. The Italians are fine and snappy dressers, but they are not the banner-carriers for conservative business style, at least, as we know it in major metropolitan areas along the DC-Boston line. I say again - I'm not defending the honor of conservative business dress or anything because I violate some tenant of it more often than not. But having seen the president of my institute ridicule a colleague for wearing brown shoes to the office (in a kind-of joking manner but kind-of not), I have a hunch that these "London rules" are not quite as ancient and forgotten as you think Manton, even outside of London.

Originally Posted by ktrp

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Very glad to see this thread!

I would guess for the average poster/lurker here, the question is not 'what's required' but rather 'what can I get away with while still being highly appropriate for a business environment'.

It seems to me that there is a difference between what is modern conservative dress in London vs. north american large cities, and perhaps even between cities in north america. It is, for example, my impression that while a few still dislike it, brown shoes are generally accepted with suits as day to day business wear in most of north america, but not in London.

That sort of difference is extremely useful to understand for those of us who travel, and might otherwise be surprised by shifting standards.

I would have to imagine. Here in Texas, it is entirely acceptable for just about anybody to wear a western hat and/or cowboy boots in almost any situation. At my previous job, I sat in formal meetings with Venture Capitalists and Lawyers wearing awesome suits with hats and perfect boots... Then again, maybe that is just VCs.

Originally Posted by MBreinin

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I think he meant he likes the brown, but is on the fence because black would have been the conservative business dress choice, Manton.

Mike

Sigh.

I hate to explain jokes but ... the original conservative business dress threads were ... jokes! Everyone has forgottent the troll Kasper/Joseph K. Bank. But he was prolific at the time and the threads were inspired by his schtick.

This thread is not a joke, or at least not intented to be. I really did wear this to work. I work in a conservative place. Suit & tie every day. No casual Friday. My boss even wears his jacket in the office. I never see odd jackets on people on my floor. (People visiting are another story.)

So, yes, this about "conservative business dress" but it's also about what you can do to conservative business dress without straying from the straight and narrow.

Or, at least, it's about what I do.

Originally Posted by Manton

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I will post every day, or every day I can be bothered, or when the spirit moves me, what I wore to work. The idea is to show what conservative business dress is, how it can be bent, and -- crucially -- what the old-timers, or at least me, mean by "classic style." Be warned: this is going to be really dull and repetitive. To those who post your own pics: you WILL be criticized, by me, to the extent that you unsuccessfully deviate from conservative business dress or do anything I disapprove of. Beyond that I will do my best to maintain equanimity, which as we all know is very difficult for me. Today: solid gray worsted twill suit, cream shirt, orangish brown cashmere houndstooth tie, blue & purple paisley square, dull orange & gray striped wool socks, dark brown pebble bluchers.
You've got to be kidding.

Originally Posted by mktitsworth

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I would have to imagine. Here in Texas, it is entirely acceptable for just about anybody to wear a western hat and/or cowboy boots in almost any situation. At my previous job, I sat in formal meetings with Venture Capitalists and Lawyers wearing awesome suits with hats and perfect boots... Then again, maybe that is just VCs.

There is a Texan in my office who wears cowboy boots almost every day.

Originally Posted by Manton

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Sigh.

I hate to explain jokes but ... the original conservative business dress threads were ... jokes! Everyone has forgottent the troll Kasper/Joseph K. Bank. But he was prolific at the time and the threads were inspired by his schtick.

This thread is not a joke, or at least not intented to be. I really did wear this to work. I work in a conservative place. Suit & tie every day. No casual Friday. My boss even wears his jacket in the office. I never see odd jackets on people on my floor. (People visiting are another story.)

So, yes, this about "conservative business dress" but it's also about what you can do to conservative business dress without straying from the straight and narrow.

Or, at least, it's about what I do.

Your office would appear to be little different from mine.