NBA 2009-2010 Season Thread

[RFX45]

You need to stop looking at the stat too much though, the numbers doesn't tell the whole story. I give the Suns credit for pulling off the zone and forcing the Lakers to take 3's but Artest 3's were uncontested, the other team gives him the freedom to shoot from behind the arc, while Odom and Browns are always contested or tries to contest it. It was just a bad night for those guys you can say since they haven't really shot that bad while Artest is consistently bad, so bad from behind the arc that others teams leaves him open and even his own coach acknowledges it in the media.

Amare still looked bad on defense, he was better but not by much. If you watch a recap of the game and look at the replays, every time the Lakers scores in the paint Amare is on the vicinity and could easily block is if he just jumps. As a big man, he can also send a message by actually being strong and taking a hard foul. Now I am not saying to hurt someone but at least let your presence be known.

The big win by the Suns isn't necessarily due to Amare but more because of Lopez. 20 unexpected points from an unexpected source, he was hitting mid range shots and free throws like it was practice. If he didn't play that well, the Suns wouldn't have won even with all of Amares points. I doubt Lopez plays the same way next game, I doubt Amare plays the same way next game but we'll see.

 

[Bona Drag]

you cant turn it over 17 times on the road and expect to win

and yeah i agree game 4 def has high kobe's-ego-*******-over-his-teammates potential

also its a bad sign that kobe and pau shot like 60%, the suns bench shot like 15% and the lakers lost

 

[Brothersport]

Originally Posted by RFX45

You need to stop looking at the stat too much though, the numbers doesn't tell the whole story. I give the Suns credit for pulling off the zone and forcing the Lakers to take 3's but Artest 3's were uncontested, the other team gives him the freedom to shoot from behind the arc, while Odom and Browns are always contested or tries to contest it. It was just a bad night for those guys you can say since they haven't really shot that bad while Artest is consistently bad, so bad from behind the arc that others teams leaves him open and even his own coach acknowledges it in the media.

Amare still looked bad on defense, he was better but not by much. If you watch a recap of the game and look at the replays, every time the Lakers scores in the paint Amare is on the vicinity and could easily block is if he just jumps. As a big man, he can also send a message by actually being strong and taking a hard foul. Now I am not saying to hurt someone but at least let your presence be known.

The big win by the Suns isn't necessarily due to Amare but more because of Lopez. 20 unexpected points from an unexpected source, he was hitting mid range shots and free throws like it was practice. If he didn't play that well, the Suns wouldn't have won even with all of Amares points. I doubt Lopez plays the same way next game, I doubt Amare plays the same way next game but we'll see.

In the same vein, the stats can tell a story that can be misconstrued by human biases. Even you said that your opinion is affected by how consistently bad Artest is, so what the hell? How can his past shooting be that much of a detriment in this specific game?

Odom should never shoot an uncontested 3, and all of Shannon Brown's 3s were uncontested and from the top of the key, the worst kind of 3. I would say that if Odom's 3s were contested, that's even worse than Artest shooting a wide open one.

Sure, Lopez and Amare won't play that well next game. But Grant Hill, Barbosa, Dudley, and Dragic probably won't play as poorly. It's all about defense for them.

 

[Brothersport]

Here's a quick video breakdown of the differences in Amare's play and Suns strategy by Kevin Arnovitz. It expands on some of the stuff I said about the Suns turning the table on Gasol on defense, etc. http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...emire-responds
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[RFX45]

Originally Posted by Brothersport

In the same vein, the stats can tell a story that can be misconstrued by human biases. Even you said that your opinion is affected by how consistently bad Artest is, so what the hell? How can his past shooting be that much of a detriment in this specific game?

Odom should never shoot an uncontested 3, and all of Shannon Brown's 3s were uncontested and from the top of the key, the worst kind of 3. I would say that if Odom's 3s were contested, that's even worse than Artest shooting a wide open one.

Because his bad shooting past has prompted the opposing team to leave him open on 3's, they encourage it and he proves it to be the right decision. Some of Odoms 3's were uncontested but not because they left him open on purpose. You said it last time for Game 1 or 2, they weren't even running towards Artest when took those open 3's. They were running to get to Odom before he took those 3's. That is a big difference.

I agree, numbers can tell a story that may have been construed but unless that person saw the game, they could also misconstrue those numbers and they become inflated. Like Kobes ft, if you look at the stats you see that he shot 8 of them but if they didn't watch the game they wouldn't know that none of them were shot in the first half. Shooting-wise, Fisher looked like he had a good game, probably one of his best shooting nights but I think he didn't play that well outside of scoring.

Actually, if you look at the numbers, Brown is +7 and Artest is a -8. Does that mean Brown played a much better game? I would say no. Kobe was a -12 but scored 36 pts while shooting 54% from the field and 100% from the line with 9 reb and 11 assist. Outside of the -12 he was close to a double-double and looked liek he had a great game but he seemed tired and a bit lost out there last night. He just couldn't pull it together with Pau and probably not his best performance, but his numbers would say otherwise.

A good example would be Lebrons stats and records but no rings.

Ok, final cheap shot at Lebron for the season.

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by LawrenceMD

i have a feeling where kobe gets pissed after this game (36pts 11assists 9rebounds) and goes into pouting mode and gives up next game to teach everyone a lesson on how important he is. its classic sequelae for bryant... that has actually resulted in him losing whole series.

I think that's unlikely -- he clearly is super-sensitive to suggestions that he did that against Phx a few years ago. If anything, he's more likely to go into "I have to do it all myself" mode and jack up a bunch of bad shots -- although he's also savvy enough to realize that even with several of his teammates having bad games, the Lakers probably still would have won but for a career game by Amare -- that he's not likley to be able to repeat.

 

[RFX45]

Originally Posted by Brothersport

Here's a quick video breakdown of the differences in Amare's play and Suns strategy by Kevin Arnovitz. It expands on some of the stuff I said about the Suns turning the table on Gasol on defense, etc.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...emire-responds
IMPORTANT NOTICE: No media files are hosted on these forums. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website. We can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. If the video does not play, wait a minute or try again later. I AGREE

TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags.

I don't really think they turned the tables on Gasol to play D, Amare should have been playing like that the whole time. The difference was in the Suns defense, they stopped the rest of the Lakers outside of Pau and Kobe and that was enough to beat them. Can't take their win away from them but I still say Lopez was the difference maker.

 

[Brothersport]

Originally Posted by RFX45

Because his bad shooting past has prompted the opposing team to leave him open on 3's, they encourage it and he proves it to be the right decision. Some of Odoms 3's were uncontested but not because they left him open on purpose. You said it last time for Game 1 or 2, they weren't even running towards Artest when took those open 3's. They were running to get to Odom before he took those 3's. That is a big difference. I agree, numbers can tell a story that may have been construed but unless that person saw the game, they could also misconstrue those numbers and they become inflated. Like Kobes ft, if you look at the stats you see that he shot 8 of them but if they didn't watch the game they wouldn't know that none of them were shot in the first half. Shooting-wise, Fisher looked like he had a good game, probably one of his best shooting nights but I think he didn't play that well outside of scoring. Actually, if you look at the numbers, Brown is +7 and Artest is a -8. Does that mean Brown played a much better game? I would say no. Kobe was a -12 but scored 36 pts while shooting 54% from the field and 100% from the line with 9 reb and 11 assist. Outside of the -12 he was close to a double-double and looked liek he had a great game but he seemed tired and a bit lost out there last night. He just couldn't pull it together with Pau and probably not his best performance, but his numbers would say otherwise. A good example would be Lebrons stats and records but no rings.

Ok, final cheap shot at Lebron for the season.
I dunno, man. I think a lot of it is due to the effects of the zone. You're going to get confused sometimes, and 3s are the main weak points of the zone. There were a bunch of plays where Fisher was left totally uncontested, Odom and Brown were (again) open a lot. Even Bryant had one ridiculously uncontested 3. To me, it looked like they were paying Artest a lot more attention than they had in Game 2. They certainly were running towards him this time. I'm well aware that most of Kobe's 3s came while down in the 4th, which is why I didn't include him with Odom and Brown as having bad games. And the +/- thing isn't me saying that he had a bad game; it's just surprising. Although I guess he did get lost in the offense in the second half.

Originally Posted by RFX45

I don't really think they turned the tables on Gasol to play D, Amare should have been playing like that the whole time.
? Amare played the pick and roll poorly the 1st two games. Now Phoenix switched it up, varied the picks, and ran a bunch of slip screens just like Gasol had been running in games 1 and 2. That put Gasol in the same position in which Amare had been.

 

[HRoi]

some of these overreactions from the Laker faithful are hilarious. you've won 8 straight playoff games, ride into the most hostile of territory, play 5-on-8 almost all night (see prev. comment about FT disparity), and go stone-cold on wide open (i mean WIIIIDEEE OPEN like Aria Giovanni) 3-pointers...and you're still only down 4 with 4 mins to go.

 

[jet]

One of the things I hate about Laker fans smh.

They lost one game, they may lose another *gasp*

Kobe is gonna kill it next game.

Lakers baby Lakers.

 

[fir3fox]

Originally Posted by jet

One of the things I hate about Laker fans smh.

Over reactions and fair weather fans can be found almost anywhere but I guarantee they're the worst here in Dallas.

So are the Celtics going to close it out tonight?

I haven't seen any fight in the Magic, so I'm thinking sweep.

 

[ConcernedParent]

Originally Posted by fir3fox

Over reactions and fair weather fans can be found almost anywhere but I guarantee they're the worst here in Dallas.

So are the Celtics going to close it out tonight?

I haven't seen any fight in the Magic, so I'm thinking sweep.

Well I mean, Dallas never really wins it...

It's probably going to be a sweep.

 

[HRoi]

agreed, sweep. Boston's already *****-slapped Orlando into the 2010-11 season.

the above posts regarding +/- got me thinking...is there a better stat than +/- that takes into consideration the quality of your teammates and the competition? like a scrub that plays in garbage time or a sixth man could have an inflated +/- when compared to a starter because he is playing against weaker competition?

 

[Bona Drag]

yea i dont know who on that team has enough pride to gut out a win and avoid the sweep

howard hasnt shown it (yet, still too soon to give up on du)

vince sure as **** doesnt have it

i cant see it being lewis

i could maybe see those three showing enough effort that a big game from nelson and some gritty play by barnes/pietrus gets them a win

i mean, its not likely but...

 

[Brothersport]

Originally Posted by HRoi

the above posts regarding +/- got me thinking...is there a better stat than +/- that takes into consideration the quality of your teammates and the competition? like a scrub that plays in garbage time or a sixth man could have an inflated +/- when compared to a starter because he is playing against weaker competition?
There's Advanced +/-, Win Shares, PER (which doesn't take into account defense, really), and a bunch of other stuff, but I can't say I'm too familiar on it. It doesn't seem like there's one real go-to site that most NBA stat fans follow, like footballoutsiders.com for NFL. Regular +/- obviously has many flaws, especially in game-to-game sample sizes, but it isn't bad for adding something that the box score otherwise doesn't show. Some sites include 82games.com, basketball-reference.com, and basketballprospectus.com, but I haven't delved into those sites past the articles and analysis.

Originally Posted by Bona Drag

vince sure as **** doesnt have it
qft