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Is becoming a lawyer a mistake?

thebeatblitz

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Well, $300k is pretty incredible for IM working 4 days a week. Columbia P&S is great, but I'm more curious about where he did his residency if he has a gig like that.
 

TheFoo

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Originally Posted by thebeatblitz
Well, $300k is pretty incredible for IM working 4 days a week. Columbia P&S is great, but I'm more curious about where he did his residency if he has a gig like that.

Well, he's also 40 and wasn't making so much until he became a partner in the practice. He did his residency at Columbia Presbyterian--whatever Columbia's corresponding teaching hospital is.
 

TheFoo

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Originally Posted by dopey
Of the associates here working at BigLaw firms, do you think you have a reasonable chance of becoming partner at your firm? Do you think you have good insight as to the likelihood either way?

I'm not an associate yet, but I'll be a first-year in October. Obviously, I can't assess my chances at partnership at this stage, but it doesn't seem like most junior associates I knew could either. Most people are hush-hush about partnership talk to begin with; partially, no one wants to look like they left the firm because partership wasn't a realistic option.

My personal approach would be just to work as hard as possible but not presume anything--for the benefit of both my sanity and careful financial planning.
 

gvibes

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Originally Posted by dopey
Of the associates here working at BigLaw firms, do you think you have a reasonable chance of becoming partner at your firm? Do you think you have good insight as to the likelihood either way?
A reasonable change of becoming an income partner (and getting paid less than some senior associates), sure. Equity partner? I don't think I could swing it.
 

lawyerdad

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Originally Posted by mafoofan
I'm not an associate yet, but I'll be a first-year in October. Obviously, I can assess my chances at partnership at this stage, but it doesn't seem like most junior associates I knew could either. Most people are hush-hush about partnership talk to begin with; partially, no one wants to look like they left the firm because partership wasn't a realistic option.

My personal approach would be just to work as hard as possible but not presume anything--for the benefit of both my sanity and careful financial planning.


I think that's prudent. Although you probably know this, I would be sure you include in your definition of "working hard" trying to develop discrete areas of expertise (preferably in an area that genuinely interests you) and following up on opportunities to develop a network of relationships with other lawyers and non-lawyer professionals. This will serve you well whether you decide to try to "make it" at your firm or go off in a different direction at some point.

I would also quibble with the "work hard as possible" comment. Certainly work hard, but you can work hard and do good work without giving up the rest of your life. Maintaining some sort of balance will make you a happier person, and probably a better lawyer as well.
 

gvibes

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Originally Posted by lawyerdad
I would also quibble with the "work hard as possible" comment. Certainly work hard, but you can work hard and do good work without giving up the rest of your life. Maintaining some sort of balance will make you a happier person, and probably a better lawyer as well.
Yep. Also, it's not like they say "oooh, he billed 2800 hours last year, let's make him partner; oooh, he only billed 2200 hours, out or up, see ya!!!"
 

dopey

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Originally Posted by gvibes
A reasonable change of becoming an income partner (and getting paid less than some senior associates), sure. Equity partner? I don't think I could swing it.

What exactly is the difference between an "Income Partner" and and "Equity Partner" at your firm. I would have thought that the former might just be a euphemism for Senior Associate or a new term for the gap when they moved the partnership goalpoast out a few years. But that doesn't make sense if they are paid less than senior associates.
 

gvibes

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Originally Posted by dopey
What exactly is the difference between an "Income Partner" and and "Equity Partner" at your firm. I would have thought that the former might just be a euphemism for Senior Associate or a new term for the gap when they moved the partnership goalpoast out a few years. But that doesn't make sense if they are paid less than senior associates.
It's basically a euphemism for associate of greater than 7-8 years (with generally the same salary), only they aren't eligible for bonuses, and they may have to pay their own payroll taxes, resulting in a pay difference. It's not the same everywhere. I know that at another big Chicago firm, income partners can make very solid money, a lot more than senior associates.
 

Ambulance Chaser

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Originally Posted by dopey
What exactly is the difference between an "Income Partner" and and "Equity Partner" at your firm. I would have thought that the former might just be a euphemism for Senior Associate or a new term for the gap when they moved the partnership goalpoast out a few years. But that doesn't make sense if they are paid less than senior associates.
Income partners are paid a salary. Equity partners own part of the business. The main difference between an income partner and a senior associate is that the former can hold himself out to clients, current and potential, as a "partner."
 

rdawson808

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So can one go through his career as an associate or do you move on if you never make it to partner (income or equity)?

Similarly, are you a partner for life as long as you want it (like tenure) or can you get canned?

Just curious.

Oh, and what payroll taxes would you have to pay? Your own? I'm so confused about how being a lawyer works.


b
 

lawyerdad

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Originally Posted by rdawson808
So can one go through his career as an associate or do you move on if you never make it to partner (income or equity)?

Similarly, are you a partner for life as long as you want it (like tenure) or can you get canned?

Just curious.

Oh, and what payroll taxes would you have to pay? Your own? I'm so confused about how being a lawyer works.


b


It depends (pretty much the answer a lawyer will give you to any question.)
Different firms structure things in different ways. As a rule, becoming partner is not a lifetime guarantee. Partners who are deemed unproductive or otherwise undesirable are, in fact, asked (or forced) to leave firms. There may be provisions in the partnership agreement or other governing documents that deal with this. (For example, there may be a requirement that a certain percentage of the existing partners vote to take such a step.) In the absence of such a contractual agreement, it normally would work the same way it does with any other business partnership.

At many firms, one can be an associate for life. "Associate" is really just a term meaning "nonpartner lawyer", although at many firms other titles are given to nonpartners of a certain seniority level or prestige -- e.g. "Of Counsel", "Counsel", "Special Counsel", "Senior Attorney". At other firms there's an "up or out" policy, such that if you don't make partner after a certain number of years you are asked to move on. The general rationale is that after a certain point you're commanding a level of compensation and sucking up work opportunities that could be better invested in more junior lawyers who are perceived as having the potential to grow into partnership candidates (whatever that happens to mean at the particular firm). It's really just a question of what structure each firm believes is best suited to its business model.
 

TheFoo

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^^^ No matter how you cut it though, being a life-long associate sounds like a pretty bleak proposition.
 

aragon765

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Originally Posted by lawyerdad
It depends (pretty much the answer a lawyer will give you to any question.)
Different firms structure things in different ways. As a rule, becoming partner is not a lifetime guarantee. Partners who are deemed unproductive or otherwise undesirable are, in fact, asked (or forced) to leave firms. There may be provisions in the partnership agreement or other governing documents that deal with this. (For example, there may be a requirement that a certain percentage of the existing partners vote to take such a step.) In the absence of such a contractual agreement, it normally would work the same way it does with any other business partnership.

At many firms, one can be an associate for life. "Associate" is really just a term meaning "nonpartner lawyer", although at many firms other titles are given to nonpartners of a certain seniority level or prestige -- e.g. "Of Counsel", "Counsel", "Special Counsel", "Senior Attorney". At other firms there's an "up or out" policy, such that if you don't make partner after a certain number of years you are asked to move on. The general rationale is that after a certain point you're commanding a level of compensation and sucking up work opportunities that could be better invested in more junior lawyers who are perceived as having the potential to grow into partnership candidates (whatever that happens to mean at the particular firm). It's really just a question of what structure each firm believes is best suited to its business model.


Great reply, good thread (a couple of lumps along that way, but good overall).

As someone who is also just entering the field (2nd year summer associate in May, articling next year) it is great to view some first-hand impressions from people. Some posts reinforce stereotypes I have, some are refreshingly unique views on the practice. They are all pretty helpful as I start to make my own decisions in this career path.

I am with Mafoofan -- work hard, work smart, look good (ok, I might not look quite as good as him, but good enough...
bigstar[1].gif
) and the rest should follow.
 

lawyerdad

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Originally Posted by mafoofan
^^^ No matter how you cut it though, being a life-long associate sounds like a pretty bleak proposition.

I have a number of friends who have made it work for them. They have worked out arrangements with their firms (in a couple of cases, it's my firm) that work for all concerned. They do good work and get receive a salary and benefits that are acceptable to them. Not being on "partnership track", they don't face some of the pressures to develop business, etc. that many associates (and partners) do. (At my firm at least, they do receive some extra compensation if they do happen to bring in business.) It's really no different from being a valued, non-management employee in many other fields. It's only a bleak proposition if you accept the BigLaw mindset that a lawyer ultimately ends up as either a partner or a failure.
 

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