Is becoming a lawyer a mistake?

Originally Posted by GQgeek

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@Coho

What people disregard or don't know about medicine if that after your 4 years med school, you start at basically 35k to work 80 hours a week for the next 3 years as an intern (i think you're at around 50-60k by the end of your 3rd year. Only after you are done do you start to make real money. And the average for a family doc is not 200k. It's like ~120k and malpractice insurance is a *****. If you want to be a surgeon then after interning you need a fellowship which can add another 2-4 years depending on specialty, if you get in. You dont' get that big salary until the end, and even then, most docs make less than people think they do. Nobody intelligent should go to med school unless they REALLY want to be doctors. There are far easier ways to make a buck if you've got the brains.

LD, why the hell would you consider that after making partner?

Agreed on many points, only surgeons are pulling and netting 200k+. Family practice/Internal Med 150k tops usually unless they are turning and burning for Cigna etc. or doing the new VIP style of medicine. With medicare part b reform alot of oncs etc just lost a 1/3 of their income.

I know orthopedic sales and medical device professionals who do 300k a year. Always on call, with a pager and in the OR.
If people knew what goes on in the OR, oh myyyyyy.

This is correct:
You dont' get that big salary until the end, and even then, most docs make less than people think they do. Nobody intelligent should go to med school unless they REALLY want to be doctors. There are far easier ways to make a buck if you've got the brains.

Practically anyone can become a doctor if you go to med school in some far away land. You don't get the respect from the community but as they always say a MD is an MD.

I haven't lived nearly long enough to say this, but I really think that doing what you enjoy is the only way to avoid making a mistake in your professional life.

Soph, my diversity committee says hi.

Originally Posted by chiffonhead

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I'm a paralegal. I have nowhere near the loan debt most attorneys do. I don't have to deal with half of the politics attorneys do. I spent the usual 4 years in college and not the 4 plus 3. I make more money than most associates make.

I was 2 months from going to law school and I'm so glad I didn't.

I can only speak from an Australian perspective, but it seems by choosing to stick to being a paralegal you've made yourself dispensable. It's a short term view IMO. You don't have half the options available to someone in the profession. If money is important to you, sure you'll make more than most associates now but most of them will also have the capacity to significantly increase their income. You won't.

Originally Posted by RJman

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I haven't lived nearly long enough to say this, but I really think that doing what you enjoy is the only way to avoid making a mistake in your professional life.

Soph, my diversity committee says hi.

I'm a touchy beetch sometimes on certain issues. But sadly too many people still go in to medicine for so called status (which has gone away somewhat unless your a surgeon or specialist), money or family pressure. I would say at least a 1/3 still say they do it for money but once you are 100k in debt there's no turning back. And alot change once they start practicing and have to produce.

Dentists seem to do better than most internal medicine. Denistry is a cash rich, non insurance based field for alot of procedures, dermatology and plastic surgery are always solid. There are some innovative doctors out there though.

I'd follow the MBA route at a top 10 school if you want the fastest, less risky, corporate route to cash. Some institutional sales guys make ridiculous money with a great lifestyle.

^ True, but I think a lot of folks who want to become law-talking people are fairly risk averse and are afraid of the lack of job security in many business jobs. Historically, law offered some job security, although that changes.

Originally Posted by Soph

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Agreed on many points, only surgeons are pulling and netting 200k+. Family practice/Internal Med 150k tops usually unless they are turning and burning for Cigna etc. or doing the new VIP style of medicine. With medicare part b reform alot of oncs etc just lost a 1/3 of their income.



Disagree. My brother and sister-in-law are both psychiatrists in a small midwestern city (and yes, she does bear some resemblance to Lillith from "Frazier", although she's much warmer). Each of their incomes exceeds that which you attribute to surgeons, and they don't really turn and burn for an hmo.

I do agree with you that salaries for medicine overall have declined, as has the prestige. But there remains a great deal of money to be made. And many doctors truly take satisfaction from their work.


The notion of job security in law has diminished -- just ask the former structured finance group at CWT! Personally, I wish I had been at a firm like Thacher which offered buyouts to attorneys.

Originally Posted by GreyFlannelMan

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The notion of job security in law has diminished -- just ask the former structured finance group at CWT! Personally, I wish I had been at a firm like Thacher which offered buyouts to attorneys.
I'll settle for a firm with an office cat. There is one in Paris, but they don't appear to have a website.

Originally Posted by penguin vic

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I can only speak from an Australian perspective, but it seems by choosing to stick to being a paralegal you've made yourself dispensable. It's a short term view IMO. You don't have half the options available to someone in the profession. If money is important to you, sure you'll make more than most associates now but most of them will also have the capacity to significantly increase their income. You won't.
maybe so, but I'm not trapped into kissing ass for 10 years just to make partner and up my salary. I'd rather do my work, go home at 5, have a great income and be happy. I know I wouldn't be happy as an attorney. what are these other "options" anyway, besides making partner?

in my state, there is no such thing as job security anyway. we are an "at will" state - anyone can be fire with or without cause.

Originally Posted by chiffonhead

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maybe so, but I'm not trapped into kissing ass for 10 years just to make partner and up my salary. I'd rather do my work, go home at 5, have a great income and be happy. I know I wouldn't be happy as an attorney. what are these other "options" anyway, besides making partner?

in my state, there is no such thing as job security anyway. we are an "at will" state - anyone can be fire with or without cause.

+1

Originally Posted by chiffonhead

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maybe so, but I'm not trapped into kissing ass for 10 years just to make partner and up my salary. I'd rather do my work, go home at 5, have a great income and be happy. I know I wouldn't be happy as an attorney. what are these other "options" anyway, besides making partner?
I'm surprised that you can go home at five and still make more than most associates. Paralegals generally make a lot of money through overtime work.

Originally Posted by GreyFlannelMan

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Disagree. My brother and sister-in-law are both psychiatrists in a small midwestern city (and yes, she does bear some resemblance to Lillith from "Frazier", although she's much warmer). Each of their incomes exceeds that which you attribute to surgeons, and they don't really turn and burn for an hmo.

I do agree with you that salaries for medicine overall have declined, as has the prestige. But there remains a great deal of money to be made. And many doctors truly take satisfaction from their work.


The notion of job security in law has diminished -- just ask the former structured finance group at CWT! Personally, I wish I had been at a firm like Thacher which offered buyouts to attorneys.

Much of what psychiatrists make is not dependant on insurance payment, i.e. peope will use their own money often times. I don't know if your folks are hospital based or what, but shrinks have many options and many revenue streams that surgeons lack. Surgeons need what? A surgical suite. A shrink can be anything from hospital based to private practice based to working for a company as a staff member.

IMO, the best route, with unlimited earning potential, is to get into health care managment. Just like being a doc, you have to put in your dues, and this could take a decade. It also really helps if you have some clinical work in your background, as it buys you cred. However, you can get into six figures fairly rapidly. Being a practice administrator for 4+ surgeons will get you a decent salary, 10+ GPs. Running an ambi-surg will get you there too, like a Health South ambi-surg. Speaking of Health South, there are multiple companies that are national with a corporate ladder to climb. You have to be ready to do the road warrior thing though to be an RVP and even a senior VP. Then there is facility and hospital administration. A big hospital in any reasonably sized city will get you 400k+, but it is just like being a doc in terms of time committment and on-call.

Originally Posted by RJman

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I haven't lived nearly long enough to say this, but I really think that doing what you enjoy is the only way to avoid making a mistake in your professional life.

Soph, my diversity committee says hi.

Very true. The thing that continues to amaze me is that many (most?) lawyers I know have fumbled around quite a bit, but ended up with stuff they really enjoy, myself included.

Originally Posted by GreyFlannelMan

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Disagree. My brother and sister-in-law are both psychiatrists in a small midwestern city (and yes, she does bear some resemblance to Lillith from "Frazier", although she's much warmer). Each of their incomes exceeds that which you attribute to surgeons, and they don't really turn and burn for an hmo.

I do agree with you that salaries for medicine overall have declined, as has the prestige. But there remains a great deal of money to be made. And many doctors truly take satisfaction from their work.


The notion of job security in law has diminished -- just ask the former structured finance group at CWT! Personally, I wish I had been at a firm like Thacher which offered buyouts to attorneys.

I should clarify certain specialities do well. My main comparison is with family practice/internal medicine. And yes, if you are willing to live in a small midwestern town you will do better in general than in large competitive, metro areas. In fact, if you are willing to sign contracts and stay in say, Kokomo Indiana, they will pay off all your school debt because the demand is that high/desperate for physicians.
Surgeons even moreso. However, quality of day to day life may be the trade off. Also, the only way to clarify what someone truly makes is those tax returns. I hear people brag so much I don't know what to believe sometimes hence statistics may lend to a more accurate analysis. I like the newer VIP medicine, it's a bit more expensive but it's what medicine should be. As far as excellence of care, I feel teaching institutions, while conservative, provide the best overall.

Originally Posted by RJman

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[ Self-deprecating comment deleted...], but I really think that doing what you enjoy is the only way to avoid making a mistake in your professional life.

Indeed, Mr. Man. Indeed.

Originally Posted by RJman

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I'm surprised that you can go home at five and still make more than most associates. Paralegals generally make a lot of money through overtime work.
generally, that's true. and I could make a lot more money if I could get as much overtime as I got at my last firm. at my present firm, however, they stress "family time" and "discourage" overtime...that's not to say I don't get 3-5 hrs of overtime per week. I just just don't get the 10-15 per pay period I used to.