On debunking the myth of artisanry

It all boils down to, can you tell something is high quality when you see it, and hold it in your hands.

we do it as a hobby, but most people just don't have the time.

Some people holding in their hands a Prada jacket, say, consider it high quality; others not.

Of course there's no reason China or Malaysia can't produce high quality products; the present cost factors in such countries incline western companies to take advantage of these, and pocket the difference with quality, and possibly image, suffering.

Given two identical products of identical quality - same man hours to produce, equally skilled "artisans' making them - but one is made in China, one in Italy, say, and costing the same to the customer, which would you choose, The 'Made In Italy' or the 'Made In China' label? Given this scenario, there would really only be a consideration of which country's economy to support.

Has anyone read that book (the name escapes me) about how so-called luxury has become so commonplace as to no longer be special?

Originally Posted by TCN

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Has anyone read that book (the name escapes me) about how so-called luxury has become so commonplace as to no longer be special?
Are you referring to Deluxe. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/books/21kaku.html

you speak the truth, false prophet. nicely written.

Originally Posted by bcate3

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you speak the truth, false prophet. nicely written.
+1 Is there even much manufacturing still done in Europe and the US? Seems like most companies have shifted operations overseas. Would that make these "overseas" countries more experienced makers of goods? I don't know a single person who works in a factory in the US making any type of good, or even know someone who knows someone that is crafting products in some factory by hand, except for the occasional artisan making small amounts of goods, like leather wallets or clothes, but none of these people are big companies selling to a broad market. But that could just be my limited social circle. As for goods, however, that are made, for instance, in China and contracted by a Chinese company, many of these goods are subpar due to corners being cut. There was an NYTimes article recently about how the Chinese government felt it necessary to step in and start cracking down on Chinese manufacturers making dangerous products. But that is most likely an outcome of limited resources and not a native inability to craft high quality products.

Chinese craftsmanship can be pretty good, but problems often arrive in substitution, either by your supplier, or their sub-supplier.

The larger worry in high quality goods is pollution in China. If you use natural fibers and fabrics, the concern with China and India is that pollution will adversely harm the materials, especially cotton, wool and leather and that these bad sources will lower standards across the board. Sources for the best materials are really a global problem.

By most measures, chinese quality is declining, not rising, mostly again due to the tier two and three suppliers. There are several really excellent suppliers in China, some are even friends of mine, but the reality is that the raw materials issues are huge and not likely to go away.

It is quite reasonable to expect better standards from European producers and makers because they do have a tradition ,a certain cultural vision of their products ...

Outsourcing has killed the great hubs of artisanal excellence not only in France ,Italy but also in China where the labour cost obsession is leading to an outsourcing of the outsourcers themselves...

Workmen at John lobb or Louis Vuitton are better trained and chosen for their excellence rather than their labour costs...
I do expect when i do buy a product that the materials used and also the human factor in it is top of the range....

Originally Posted by countdemoney

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Chinese craftsmanship can be pretty good, but problems often arrive in substitution, either by your supplier, or their sub-supplier. The larger worry in high quality goods is pollution in China. If you use natural fibers and fabrics, the concern with China and India is that pollution will adversely harm the materials, especially cotton, wool and leather and that these bad sources will lower standards across the board. Sources for the best materials are really a global problem. By most measures, chinese quality is declining, not rising, mostly again due to the tier two and three suppliers. There are several really excellent suppliers in China, some are even friends of mine, but the reality is that the raw materials issues are huge and not likely to go away.
This is extremely interesting. Are the Chinese suppliers that you speak of in fashion? Do you actually mean the effects of air and water pollution on the quality of cotton and wool produced in China? At what level of the supply does pollution effect the quality of the raw materials used in clothing? I didn't realize this was a problem, though living here and experiencing the pollution every day, I'm not surprised. All of these comments on European versus Chinese craftsmanship are interesting. Chinese certainly prefer foreign labels, particularly in fashion, believing that they are more stylish and offer better quality. Also, foreign brands made in China are perceived as far superior to Chinese brands made in China. This perception is absolutely based on reality. While I'm sure China could produce high quality, it certainly hasn't made that a goal yet in the world of clothing. The idea here is that any imported good is superior both at the level of the raw materials and the workmanship. It is nearly impossible to get a very good tie or shoes, made in China.

Perhaps the greatest achievement of Orson Wells was to debunk the MYTH of French superiority in champagne making.

If artisanal champagne can come from outside France, then excellence can come from anywhere:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqxhM...eature=related

Q.E.D.

Originally Posted by countdemoney

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Chinese craftsmanship can be pretty good, but problems often arrive in substitution, either by your supplier, or their sub-supplier.

The larger worry in high quality goods is pollution in China. If you use natural fibers and fabrics, the concern with China and India is that pollution will adversely harm the materials, especially cotton, wool and leather and that these bad sources will lower standards across the board. Sources for the best materials are really a global problem.

By most measures, chinese quality is declining, not rising, mostly again due to the tier two and three suppliers. There are several really excellent suppliers in China, some are even friends of mine, but the reality is that the raw materials issues are huge and not likely to go away.
Label found on a Ralph Lauren sweater: "Made in China of Italian Yarn" -- maybe that's the way of the future if pollution were to affect Chinese raw materials.

What does, "debunking the myth", mean?

Do you think that artisinal work doesn't exist and you won't to show this?

Quality work is readily available from manufacturers. Crap is also available.
Are you asking for a way to tell the difference?

The more I read on fashion forums, the more I understand just how hard it is for a majority to be discriminating buyers.

If you look at the tags, you will see that I was rather churlishly tweaking the beard of certain members.

Originally Posted by RJman

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If you look at the tags, you will see that I was rather churlishly tweaking the beard of certain members.
LOL! It's so easy to fool people with advertising. At the bottom of all of this is just one fact: most individuals have never seen real luxury items. Unless you haunt upscale antique stores and the like you won't get a chance. What most do is experience a high quality item and make that the benchmark. The only time I've seen true luxury items on the SF is when Lucky Strike and LK post photos of them.

Originally Posted by caelte

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The only time I've seen true luxury items on the SF is when Lucky Strike and LK post photos of them.
Now I am interested in how you are defining luxury. Clearly your definition has an element of dreams or dream-fulfillment, as Jean-Louis Dumas-Hermes of Hermes liked to say, since LK inhabits a world of rather interesting fantasy.