Kiton- what is really inside, lots of pics.

Why does there have to be an agenda at play. Perhaps I feel ripped off by buying Kiton in the past, perhaps I am a competitor, perhaps I was trying to do a service to the forum.

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Given that's your first post, why don't you reveal what your role is here? Are you a competitor?

I agree completely with Zegnamtl. This thread is potentially very misleading. Anyone wanting a properly-balanced and in-depth discussion of the extent to which Kiton is hand made--along with a ton of related discussion (such as the places where this constitutes an actual advantage and where it is a disadvantage)--is referred to the definitive thread ("the truth" in reality!):

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/f...ad.php?t=56695

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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I'm only repeating in my posts on Kiton what reliable sources have told me about manufacture. If that information is wrong then I will admit it but I have not seen any evidence yet that a significant amount of handwork has been deployed in a Kiton jacket.
If a suit's collar, lapels and main seams are done by machine, how can there be 25 hours worth of handwork in there? I'm sure ornamental pic stitching aroung the lapels and pockets takes some time but 25 hours seems really high.

I'm not denigrating Kiton or saying that anyone is lying.

I just don't know where you're coming up with this 25 hour figure.

Guys, the truth about handwork is what it is. But, to paraphrase Churchill, this truth may be true, but it is not exhaustive. There's more to Kiton than what is inside. Even knowing what I know about its guts, I would still rather wear Kiton than any other RTW brand I can think of, for a number of reasons.

I just don't know where you're coming up with this 25 hour figure.

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The factory people at the Artisan Collaboratives at Louis claimed that and I have no reason to doubt them. They have been truthful to me in the past on a wide variety of subjects.

Just because the handwork is somewhere else does not mean it is not there. Look at Zegnamtl's Kiton thread that Roger linked to. Clearly this is a meticulous process.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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+1. I am always amazed at the amount of grief Kiton gets here on the board despite the quality of the suits. The problem here is that the pictures do not show precisely where the 25+ hours (some say 28-30) of handwork goes in a Kiton suit........ ......At Oxxford, they use a machine on the shoulders I am told. Why isn't Oxxford crucified for that? At what point does the machine work create a lack of quality?
Kiton has never claimed 25 plus hours. They try to keep it to 20 to 24 hours but some fabrics are harder to work on and require more. The average over the run is about 24 for the entire suit, not just the jacket! The numbers are close to the same at Oxxford. This is for RTW suits. MTM and K 50 are a different cup of tea. Oxxford does not use a machine to attached the shoulder. They go thought a very time consuming chain link stitch process that sucks up man hours. Oxxford, like Kiton has sat down and said what can be done on a machine, so we can invest the man hours where it counts and where is shows!! The time to put together the shoulder at Kiton was high, very high. It does not translate like a perfect spreadsheet at the end of the day. The machine made pick stitching on my MTM Canali is horrible compared to what I see on a Kiton. A Kiton tailor checks on the flow of a shoulder as he sticthes.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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The problem here is that the pictures do not show precisely where the 25+ hours (some say 28-30) of handwork goes in a Kiton suit. But that is still a large amount of hand finishing. And the factory remains quite quiet due to the hand labor.

Where else is there on a jacket that requires 25+ (even up to 30) hours of hand labor?

Originally Posted by Manton

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Guys, the truth about handwork is what it is. But, to paraphrase Churchill, this truth may be true, but it is not exhaustive. There's more to Kiton than what is inside. Even knowing what I know about its guts, I would still rather wear Kiton than any other RTW brand I can think of, for a number of reasons.

A very reasonable approach indeed.

Originally Posted by Zegnamtl

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Innuendo is a very powerful thing!

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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Given that's your first post, why don't you reveal what your role is here? Are you a competitor?

Originally Posted by Roger

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I agree completely with Zegnamtl. This thread is potentially very misleading. Anyone wanting a properly-balanced and in-depth discussion of the extent to which Kiton is hand made--along with a ton of related discussion (such as the places where this constitutes an actual advantage and where it is a disadvantage)--is referred to the definitive thread ("the truth" in reality!):

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/f...ad.php?t=56695

Once again, I made not a single comment on Kiton quality. I did not say what they should do by hand and what they should not do. Perhaps next week I will filet an Oxxford, Borrelli or Brioni. Doing so would still not change what was inside this jacket. I have no idea how many hours Kiton spends on a jacket, and I really don't care. I simply opened up a jacket and took pictures. There is no lie nor accusation on my part.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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Just because the handwork is somewhere else does not mean it is not there.

Where else would it be if it's not in the lapels and colalr? I really don't think you get 25 hours out of pic stitchnig lapels and attaching the sleeves and collar.

I mean you'd get about 50 hours of handwork if I had to perform those tasks but I'm guessing that the Kiton employees are a lot more skilled than I am.

Look at Zegnamtl's Kiton thread that Roger linked to. Clearly this is a meticulous process.

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I don't doubt that.

I've never bought a Kiton but I look at them every time I'm in Bergdorf.

My point is that a machine made suit can be very good so why try to force the issue that Kiton has X amount of handsewing when it doesn't look like it does.

You seem to be arguing that in order to be good, it has to have a certain amount of handsewing. I disagree.

Originally Posted by Roger

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I agree completely with Zegnamtl. This thread is potentially very misleading. Anyone wanting a properly-balanced and in-depth discussion of the extent to which Kiton is hand made--along with a ton of related discussion (such as the places where this constitutes an actual advantage and where it is a disadvantage)--is referred to the definitive thread ("the truth" in reality!):

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/f...ad.php?t=56695

Thank you Roger,
I just checked on that thread and the pictures are not coming up as I originally posted them, I will try to edit the tonight. Some are double and some are not showing.

Kiton has never claimed 25 plus hours.

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Massimo and Dan Wolman both have told me this as has Antonio DeMatteis. Do you think I am lying?

Maybe the difference is my suits are MTM....Antonio did a nice job fixing my sloping shoulder fit issue.

Originally Posted by the truth

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Once again, I made not a single comment on Kiton quality. I did not say what they should do by hand and what they should not do. Perhaps next week I will filet an Oxxford, Borrelli or Brioni. Doing so would still not change what was inside this jacket. I have no idea how many hours Kiton spends on a jacket, and I really don't care. I simply opened up a jacket and took pictures. There is no lie nor accusation on my part.

Though you did have a fake hand flip off what you called a fake handmade suit.

You seem to be arguing that in order to be good, it has to have a certain amount of handsewing.

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Where did I say that?

I am only claiming that a certain number of hours have gone into the Kiton jackets. I'm a strategy consultant and not a tailor so I only go by what I hear from reliable sources.

Originally Posted by the truth

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Once again, I made not a single comment on Kiton quality. I did not say what they should do by hand and what they should not do. Perhaps next week I will filet an Oxxford, Borrelli or Brioni. Doing so would still not change what was inside this jacket. I have no idea how many hours Kiton spends on a jacket, and I really don't care. I simply opened up a jacket and took pictures. There is no lie nor accusation on my part.


Why are you not answering the question here? Are you a competitor?