What is your favorite hand gun?

Originally Posted by LSeca

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Tokyo, I understand where you are coming from with some of your shotgun info. However, for home defense, it is still my preference. Stopping power is easily the most important thing for me, and no pistol can put a human being down as effectively as a shotgun. This is the biggest advantage, and the most important argument I have. Forget about lucky shot placement with a pistol, your odds of being able to hit a moving target are better with the scatter gun, especially in the dark or if you yourself are on the move or possible firing around a corner without an aimed shot. One thing you can do with a shotgun is use different rounds also, I would not have the first round chambered with buckshot, but rather bird shot. This will not penetrate walls fyi. As far as the argument of being able to take a long gun away as you say there is more leverage, I don't buy it. I think it is easier to dissarm a man with a pistol than an 18 inch shotgun in close combat. Again, this is my preference in my home where I know the lay out, others may feel differently.
Is that really true? I was under the impression that there are some pistols that have a particularly forceful firepower like the Smith & Wesson 500.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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I'm just trying to figure out the point. WHY? Why would you load your first shot with something that only has (in my estimation) a 50/50 shot of incapacitating your target... when the main reason you got the shotgun is for the stopping power?

This is decent stopping power, but not better than the follow up 00 buck loads. The first being #6 bird shot, when propelled at 1300 fps has a maximum penetration depth of about five inches in standard ordnance geletin. This round will not go through a wall but even a poor placed shot will knock a man down.

JLibourel, I was always trained the pistol is last resort. I feel comfortable with the shotgun and my abilities. You do make valid points and I respect your knowledge, but this is what I am comfortable with.

Originally Posted by LabelKing

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Is that really true? I was under the impression that there are some pistols that have a particularly forceful firepower like the Smith & Wesson 500.


This is something I am not aware of, even so I would not think you would be able to have a decent follow-up shot (doouble tap) if it is this powerful. I am not saying it isn't capable, but most likely not something you can control.

Originally Posted by LSeca

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The first being #6 bird shot, when propelled at 1300 fps has a maximum penetration depth of about five inches in standard ordnance geletin. This round will not go through a wall but even a poor placed shot will knock a man down.
The real problem with this is that a person is not made of ballistics gelatin. And 5 inches is only going to be about one and a half an inch more than the .177 test bb they use to calibrate the gelatin which is only fired at 580fps. Your standard hollowpoint handgun round is going to have much better cavitation and hopefully at least 12" of penetration (which is considered the general minimum for a service round)

Since this is a Styleforum, it would be natural to get the most stylish handgun which usually involves something from the past.

Originally Posted by LSeca

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This is something I am not aware of, even so I would not think you would be able to have a decent follow-up shot (doouble tap) if it is this powerful. I am not saying it isn't capable, but most likely not something you can control.

Actually you don't need to go anywhere near that big. The 1450fps .357 magnum is one of the top rated firearm loads for stopping power. 583ft lbs of kinetic energy on impact aint no joke. It's also fairly easy for me to double tap.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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The real problem with this is that a person is not made of ballistics gelatin. And 5 inches is only going to be about two and a half more inches than the .177 test bb they use to calibrate the gelatin which is only fired at 580fps. Your standard hollowpoint handgun round is going to have much better cavitation and hopefully at least 12" of penetration (which is considered the general minimum for a service round)

This is why if the first round isn't effective at stopping the intruder, I follow-up with more potent rounds. My priority is stopping power, and this will stop someone...most likely not kill them but stop them. Again, more potent rounds are to follow if this doesn't work. The other reason for this is to absolutely minimize shooting someone I am not aiming at. This round will not go through walls, ricochet, etc. Again, I know I have more potent rounds available if need. Hell, I have other weapons available if need. Finally, my wife is comfortable with this weapon and it is available to her.


Tokyo, I must say I am tired of this discussion. This is my choice, I did not say it was the best for anyone else. I mentioned the possibility of a shotgun to the OP. You started quoting and writing reasons not to use this or that, just for an argument. Grow up. I know my capabilities, and I have military and police training that I use to make my home defense decisions. You can continue to try to banter back and forth with me, I have nothing further to prove to you.

Originally Posted by LabelKing

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Since this is a Styleforum, it would be natural to get the most stylish handgun which usually involves something from the past.

Here is my 1911, it is beautiful.

Originally Posted by LSeca

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Tokyo, I must say I am tired of this discussion. This is my choice, I did not say it was the best for anyone else.
To be perfectly honest, I wasn't responding to you.originally. You started this conversation with me, so you are fully capable of ending it whenever you choose.I was merely countering the notion, posted by odoreater, that "experts" reccomend shotguns over all else for home defense, which is at best misleading, and at worst, potentially dangerous.. That being said, I don't know how many times I can say, use what you are comfortable with... but um... use what you are comfortable with. But for someone not currently comfortable with ANYTHING, I don't think a shotgun will serve them any better than a handgun, and in some cases, it will serve them worse. I won't be breaking into any homes in the near future, so I could care less either way what you choose to stalk around your house in your PJ's, playing Rambo with. The opinion that a shotgun will serve you any better in a home defense capacity than a pistol is just that, an opinion. Sometimes it just seems that people take an opinion about guns and present it as if it were based on purely tactical or scientific evidence, which can be fatal. I prefer not to make that mistake. The editor of a major firearm publication with years of experience in both hands on tactical training, and common sense, (JLibourel), one of the top home defense experts in the world (his friend Massad Ayoob, from what I've read) and I all agree (I'm pretty sure Jan was trying to back me up...?) That a shotgun is a very capable firearm, and some people might choose it and be fine, but as your sole option for urban home defense, there are many handguns (or even *gasp* non-firearms) that will do everything as well or better. Except blow three foot holes in your house if you miss. Plus a smaller gun WILL offer you greater retention and maneuverability in case of a close quarters scenario, which most in-home incedents tend to be. I would refrain from getting all frustrated. Never once did I say you were wrong with what you choose to defend yourself and your family, nor did I belittle any experience that you may or may not have had. I cannot judge your situation, skills, or experience from the information provided in this thred, so I'm not goint to try. In fact several times I wished that you never had to encounter any of the things I was talking about or had any reason to use your shotgun. I am not attacking you. So telling me to "grow up" is ironically, a bit childish, don't you think?

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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If you are on a budget of ca. $300, I would second the advice to go with a good double-action revolver. You won't find anything good new for that price except maybe a few of the lower-end Taurus revolvers (which are perfectly okay). However, you should be able to find plenty of good second-hand Smith & Wesson and Ruger revolvers in very sound shape for around that price or a little less. For general purpose defensive duty, I'd recommend a medium-frame revolver with a three- or four-inch barrel in .38 Special or .357 Magnum. (I think you will get the best balance of stopping power and controllability with .38 Special ammo loaded hot or .357 Magnum ammo loaded mild, which amount to about the same thing ballistically. As you may know, a .357 Magnum revolver can shoot all .38 Special ammo as well--but with some loss of velocity and often not-so-good accuracy.)

I think a second-hand Smith & Wesson or Ruger would be your best bet. Colt revolvers are semi-collectible these days, and a Smith or Ruger will usually give you more for your money. Besides, the lockwork on Colt revolvers tends to be more delicate. The Taurus revolvers made in the last 15 years or so can be quite comparable to Smith or Ruger revolvers. The ones made between the mid-1980s and the early 1990s are, well, okay but usually not the equal of Smith or Ruger. The Taurus revolvers made during the 1970s were really rough and crude and not quality arms. A Smith or Ruger from any era should be fine although I would caution that medium-frame Smith & Wesson .38 Specials made before 1957 (when they started stamping mode numbers on them) are not recommended for the most powerful ammunition in this caliber.

I still believe a good double-action revolver is more likely to give you a reliable, trouble-free gun right out of the box than an auto pistol. I also believe that a good second-hand DA revolver purchased for $250 or so will protect you just about as well as a $3,000 custom 1911.

A virtue of the revolver is that you can start with very mild loads like .38 Target Wadcutters and work your way up as you become more proficient and used to recoil. Its simpler manual of arms also makes it safer and more user-friendly for the novice.

Just my $.02.

Double action is not good for me. Trigger is too long and too stiff. Fire is unaccurate and slow due to stiff trigger.

For around 300 I found Beretta 9000S in 0.40 caliber designed by Giugiaru Italy.
Thank you for all advice.
I will go to test it this weekend if i can find a range that has it.

I'll say 2 additional things for a shot gun

1. if you get into a situation where you are shooting in your house, you will probrably need to redecorate. having a 3 foot hole in the wall, or a 2 inch hole, doens't matter very much. having a hole that goes through 4 walls and into the neighborhs bedroom is another story. I believe that a shot gun round of small shot may leave a big whole in my drywall, but it is less likly to kill somebody that I would rather not kill.

2 I am very much torn on the whole "stoping power" issue. I was raised on 5.56 ammo, which is high velocity and tiny. and I spent some time with 9 mm ammo. my, personal, expereince has been that when a person is shot he stops fighting. I don't know if the people I knew were espectialy wimpy, although I can say that they were pretty small - seldom more than 85 kilos - but still I find it hard to believe that there are all of these people out there who take shot after shot and keep on coming. I was also raised on a doctrine of multiple shots - it would never dawn on my to shoot somebody once - I would probrably shoot 2-4 times at a minimum. so for me the idea of having a round of tiny bird shot as the first round, or maybe even a full load of birdshot makes sense. I am, as I have stated before, much more concerned with the unintended consequesnses of a round going where I didn't want it to.

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

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Double action is not good for me. Trigger is too long and too stiff. Fire is unaccurate and slow due to stiff trigger.

maybe it's my imagination, but you almost seem sure to be put in a position where you have to shoot someone in the near future...?

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

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$300.00

Self defence.

ruger p89.

Originally Posted by Get Smart

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maybe it's my imagination, but you almost seem sure to be put in a position where you have to shoot someone in the near future...?

That's what I always find so disturbing when I see threads like this. The person always comes across as being a bit too eager.

Personally I recommend he just buy himself a sword. Even the craziest motherfuckers around will think twice when you draw a sword and out-crazy them. Plus swords are so much more stylish than guns.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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Plus a smaller gun WILL offer you greater retention and maneuverability in case of a close quarters scenario, which most in-home incedents tend to be.


I would refrain from getting all frustrated.


Ok, fine. I do have to let you in on a little secret though, seeing how you repeat this retention non-sense even after I said it wasn't true. A home defense shotgun can be rather small and very manueverable with one hand. The best part is, when you are properly trianed to use a retention strap no one is going to take the weapon away from you unless you allow it. You can even use the shotgun to strike someone if it came to that.

Btw, I am pretty certain (not positive) JLibourel would say training is just as important as what you are armed with.

I guess we just agree to disagree on certain things, no harm in that. I am not frustrated, just tired of this conversation.


Finally, I apologize dkzzz. This perfectly good thread you started really got off track and I feel somewhat responsible. I hope you find what you are looking for.