21 Shot dead at Virginia Tech

Well I think it depends on what type of personality the person has coupled with the type of threat. Some poeple might react violently to some threats and there are people who might react violently to different levels of threat. People have different thresholds.

As for the locked doors thing. Its pluralistic ignorance. If no ones doing anything about it, then everyones going to think that nothing is wrong. A person doesnt want to do anything about it because its not approved at the moment socially. It just might seem awkward to go do something about it when everyone seems fine

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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but how many times does something out of the ordinary happen that is a prank or what not? do you really react every time?

a few weeks ago, I was at my sons hebrew school - it was a warmish day, and this arab woman, covered head to toe with a small opening for her eyes, wearing ahavy coat, is dropped off by a car in front of the school. she gets out of the car, with two heavy shoping bags, and starts to walk up to the school. i had my son lie down next to a heavy wall and away from the window, and I ran to tell the cop who guards the entrace that I thought she should check why this woman was here. she was sort of amused that I was concerned. it turns out the woman was part of a cross cultural activity. but, very frankly, she was way out of place, and could have been a threat. my instict was to blow her head off.

anyway, my point being, that we are not used to reacting with violence when soemthing threatening happens around us.


good description of being alert, be aware of one's surroundings and be aware of what seems to be out-of-place. Gotta do it yourself when you can't rely on cops or others to do it for you.

Let's face it, this horrific tragedy will be headline new for quite awhile, then blow over like every other tragedy bofore it. Certainly there will be candlelight vigils, intense scrutinies of the police response, interviews with family of the killed and attempted interviews with the killer's family.....etc...etc.. After so many school shootings the media response becomes quite predictable.

I wonder whose' head's gonna roll for this mess?

Originally Posted by lee_44106

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good description of being alert, be aware of one's surroundings and be aware of what seems to be out-of-place. Gotta do it yourself when you can't rely on cops or others to do it for you.

Let's face it, this horrific tragedy will be headline new for quite awhile, then blow over like every other tragedy bofore it. Certainly there will be candlelight vigils, intense scrutinies of the police response, interviews with family of the killed and attempted interviews with the killer's family.....etc...etc.. After so many school shootings the media response becomes quite predictable.

I wonder whose' head's gonna roll for this mess?

And you would propose handling it how?

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

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And you would propose handling it how?

Like everyone else on this forum, I don't have a solution.

My message, however, is not any different from any of the other speculations that has so far carried over 4 pages.

After the tragedies at Columbine and such, followed by seemingly monthly, large scale senseless shootings, it seems to me that the nation as a whole lack the will to do anything meaningful.

We as a nation either ban guns (this will NEVER happen) or enforce pre-existing gun laws (this takes too much effort, it's easier to pass more laws). So as I see it, absolutely NOTHING will happen from a tangible, preventive standpoint.

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

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And you would propose handling it how?

obvously, you can't have a swat team in every universty or school. but, how about this, for every 500 students, you give a full scholorship to a returning infantry vetran, with the provision that for two 8 hour shifts per week, he sits in a room fully dressed with his shoes on and an assult rifle next to him. in the event of anything like this that overwhelms the ability of the campus police, he is the firepower on the scene. those who are off duty are expected to run to the campus police when they are paged, arm up and join him. so, at any point in time, you have one riffle man at the scene within 5 minutes, and then 5 to 20 others within 10 minutes or so.

in the summer, they have to go for a month of training, which involves training excersizes around campus, shooting and other drills.

maybe you extend the coverage to support local schools, as well.

Originally Posted by jett

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In my experience the vast majority of colleges have real police officers and not just campus security. I would be surprised if a campus with 26,000 students didn't have a real police force.
I just looked into campus security at the University of Alberta (my home institution). We have over 36,000 students and a campus that covers 50 blocks with over 90 buildings. All of that, and our security is comprised of only 25 "patrol constables" (not even real polic officers). What the hell is that? That's nothing. If the situation is similar in Virginia Tech, I'm not suprised several dozen students lost their lives.

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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obvously, you can't have a swat team in every universty or school. but, how about this, for every 500 students, you give a full scholorship to a returning infantry vetran, with the provision that for two 8 hour shifts per week, he sits in a room fully dressed with his shoes on and an assult rifle next to him. in the event of anything like this that overwhelms the ability of the campus police, he is the firepower on the scene. those who are off duty are expected to run to the campus police when they are paged, arm up and join him. so, at any point in time, you have one riffle man at the scene within 5 minutes, and then 5 to 20 others within 10 minutes or so.

in the summer, they have to go for a month of training, which involves training excersizes around campus, shooting and other drills.

maybe you extend the coverage to support local schools, as well.

Globe,

your idea will NEVER fly.

It's too practical, which goes against anything the government does.
Also, some may object to having a guy in a camo suit, with a rifle, on campus.

An article I found from a Virginial newspaper a year ago.

"Virginia Tech's ban on guns may draw legal fire" from Wednesday, April 13, 2005
Some people question whether the university has the authority to ban the carrying of firearms.
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BLACKSBURG - Virginia Tech's recent action against a student caught carrying a gun to class could draw unwanted attention from groups already angry about firearms restrictions on public college campuses.

University officials confirmed that, earlier this semester, campus police approached a student found to be carrying a concealed handgun to class. The unnamed student was not charged with any crimes because he holds a state-issued permit allowing him to carry a concealed gun. But the student could face disciplinary action from the university for violating its policy prohibiting "unauthorized possession, storage or control" of firearms on campus.

Tech spokesman Larry Hincker declined to release the student's name or specifics of the incident, citing rules protecting student confidentiality. But Hincker said Tech's ban on guns dates back several decades.

Students who violate the school policy could be called before the university's internal judicial affairs system, which has wide discretion in handing down penalties ranging from a reprimand to expulsion.

"I think it's fair to say that we believe guns don't belong in the classroom," Hincker said. "In an academic environment, we believe you should be free from fear."

Most public colleges in Virginia ban or restrict guns on campus. But the root of that authority is murky, according to some observers.

Virginia law already prohibits students or visitors from carrying guns onto the grounds of public and private K-12 schools. The state also prohibits concealed weapons in courthouses, places of worship during a service, jails and on any private property where the owner has posted a "no guns" notice. State employees are barred from possessing guns while at work unless needed for their job.

But Virginia code is silent on guns and public colleges. And two bills seeking to give college governing boards the authority to regulate firearms on campus died in committee during this year's General Assembly session.

David Briggman, a resident of Keezletown in Rockingham County, has made it his personal mission to challenge state colleges' authority to enact tougher gun restrictions than the state.

Briggman, who is a former police officer, said he forced Blue Ridge Community College to allow him to carry a gun onto campus while a student. And he sued James Madison University over its ban on concealed weapons even among permit holders. While JMU's policy still stands, Briggman said he has been told by campus police officials that they will not arrest visitors who carry a gun legally.

"It's extremely easy to challenge university policy by looking at ... whether they are given the statutory authority to regulate firearms on campus, and of course, they're not," Briggman said Tuesday.

Hincker, meanwhile, said it is not unusual for colleges to have more restrictive policies than the state. As an example, Hincker said certain chemicals and explosives that are legal on the outside are prohibited in the classroom or in dormitories for safety reasons.

"We think we have the right to adhere to and enforce that policy because, in the end, we think it's a common-sense policy for the protection of students, staff and faculty as well as guests and visitors," Hincker said.

Virginia Tech also has the backing of the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police. In a policy position paper dated April 1, association executive director Dana Schrad wrote that the presence of guns on college campuses "adds a dangerous element to an environment in which alcohol is a compounding factor." Students should not have to be concerned about guns on campus, Schrad wrote.

"The excellent reputation of Virginia's colleges and universities depends in part on the public's belief that they are sending their college-age children to safe environments," the policy paper reads.

At least one attorney who represents college students would like to see the concealed-carry permit issue clarified.

John Robertson, the Student Legal Services attorney at Tech, said he's heard differing interpretations of the policy at Tech. Robertson, whose position is funded through the Student Government Association's budget, does not represent students in disputes with the university but offers free legal advice and services to students on civil and criminal matters.

Robertson said he would like to see either a court or the state Attorney General's Office resolve the matter. As for a university's refusal to honor a concealed-carry permit, Robertson added: "I am dubious that one particular arm of the state can do so without a particular statute."

Hincker acknowledged that the concealed guns issue had "never been tested" and that the university could be opening itself up to legal action.

"But we stand by the policy unequivocally," Hincker said.
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Originally Posted by lee_44106

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Like everyone else on this forum, I don't have a solution.

My message, however, is not any different from any of the other speculations that has so far carried over 4 pages.

After the tragedies at Columbine and such, followed by seemingly monthly, large scale senseless shootings, it seems to me that the nation as a whole lack the will to do anything meaningful.

We as a nation either ban guns (this will NEVER happen) or enforce pre-existing gun laws (this takes too much effort, it's easier to pass more laws). So as I see it, absolutely NOTHING will happen from a tangible, preventive standpoint.

I think the "lacking the will" comment may be partially justified, but for some people it's about sincerely not believing that either of those two approaches would really solve the "problem". I think that in part the perceived lack of action reflects the unhappy truth that there is no obvious, easy solution to the problem -- assuming we could come to agreement on a meaningful definition of "the problem" itself.
My question was sincere, not meant to seem snide.

A lot of my friends go to VT. The first thing I did was check Facebook to see if everyone was OK. I recommend that everyone does this. I hope no one here lost anybody they even remotely knew.

I hope this doesn't change Virginia's relatively awesome gun laws.

Originally Posted by lee_44106

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Globe,

your idea will NEVER fly.

It's too practical, which goes against anything the government does.
Also, some may object to having a guy in a camo suit, with a rifle, on campus.

The truth behind this statement is so ironic as to not even be funny considering the situation people at the VT campus faced this morning.

Originally Posted by LA Guy

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Edit: What is surprising is that the police didn't shut everything down immediately. i.e. completely lockdown. No movement by anyone for any reason. It's much harder to move around unnoticed when everyone is completely still.

I don't know about this school, but at the University of Washington if this had happened:

- AFAIK there is no centralized announcement system that could put the place on lockdown

-even if they did try, many people would freak out and try to leave, and the place is very spread out and surrounded by city areas so it would be easy for many

-during the day there are only maybe 10-20 cops who could respond, many of them on bicycles, though they are "real" police officers and not just security

-some activist type jackass students would make a big deal out of going to see why we were being locked down and try to get to where the action is because it's probably Bush suppressing the populace, or commies or Zionists or something - not being facetious, I am positive this would happen especially after the taser incident

I feel terrible for the family of everyone involved, and I hate to be the jerk American cowboy that brings this up, but I have to think that one well-trained student legally carrying a concealed pistol could have stopped this much earlier...

[edit - while typing, that response about VA's anti gun policy came up, and I'm not surprised... I doubt they will rethink that though]

Also if it hasn't been discussed already, anyone can buy a gun in VA, provided that they are of age. Open carry is allowed under almost any circumstance (other than obvious places like PD or Airport). Concealed carry is shall issue or whatever it's called (i.e. if you own a gun then you can get one).

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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The truth behind this statement is so ironic as to not even be funny considering the situation people at the VT campus faced this morning.
<3.

From the Virginia Tech website:

"Campus remains closed; convocation Tuesday at Cassell

04/16/2007, Updated 3:40 p.m.

Two shootings on campus today have left 22 confirmed dead, including students.

Counseling assistance for students in available at West Ambler Johnston and McComas Hall until 9 p.m. tonight. Students are encouraged to utilize these services.

Counseling for faculty and staff is available in the Bowman Room on the fourth floor of Jamerson Athletic Center, accessible from Jamerson or the Merryman Athletic Facility.

The university will remain closed Tuesday. Essential personal are to report for work. Classes are canceled.

A public gathering will be held Tuesday at Cassell Coliseum at 2 p.m.

All students are urged to contact their parents as soon as possible to let them know individuals are safe.

Students, faculty, and staff who have any information related to the incident at West Ambler Johnston Hall and Norris Hall are encouraged to go to the Blacksburg Police Department to make statements, or call 540-231-TIPP (8477), or 231-6411.

More information will be released during news conference at 4:30 p.m."