Ancient Madder Ties

Roger · Apr 9, 2007

Lately, I've become interested in these ties, particularly with respect to their finish and the use of traditional vegetable dyes (e.g., indigo). I haven't purchased one yet and had a few questions that I'm sure many of you could answer:

1. Are these ties generally paisley prints?

2. Are the ties labeled as ancient madder all actually made the traditional way (with madder dyes), or has that label just come to mean a fairly roughly-finished paisley print?

3. Where the heck can I find a good one? It seemed a while back (when I wasn't interested), I was running into them all the time. Now, when I am interested, I can't find many, and none with a color/pattern I really like.

4. What do you see as the appropriate sort of dress with which to wear these ties? More casual jackets? Tweed or other more roughly-finished jackets?

Will · Apr 9, 2007

I like them with tweed and flannel glen checks.

I've seen paisleys and neats, but none recently.

If you find a source, please share. Production was supposed to continue after David Evans, but I haven't seen it

Edward Appleby · Apr 9, 2007

Not to vouch for either, but RLPL and Brooks both do ancient madder ties.

aportnoy · Apr 9, 2007

A Paul Stuart specialty. They have them every fall.

demeis · Apr 9, 2007

Just ordered some today from Talbott. Have about 3 styles coming, they are all offered in Paisley. Not sure if they are done traditionally, if i read this sooner i could have asked.

coachvu · Apr 9, 2007

I've seen them regularly from Ben Silver, and they also show up on polo.com.

Roger · Apr 9, 2007

Demeis, I tried Hansen's Clothing, a big supplier of Robert Talbott ties, but came up empty. Where do you get your Talbott ties, and are ancient madders available now? Coachvu, I tried both Ben Silver and Polo.com and came up empty. They don't seem to have them at the moment. Edward Appleby, same result at Brooks. Andrew, you may have put your finger on it when you said that Paul Stuart have them every fall. They don't seem to have any now, but given that this tie style is more of a fall/winter accessory, maybe I'm looking at the wrong time of year.

coachvu · Apr 9, 2007

Originally Posted by Roger

Demeis, I tried Hansen's Clothing, a big supplier of Robert Talbott ties, but came up empty. Where do you get your Talbott ties, and are ancient madders available now? Coachvu, I tried both Ben Silver and Polo.com and came up empty. They don't seem to have them at the moment. Edward Appleby, same result at Brooks. Andrew, you may have put your finger on it when you said that Paul Stuart have them every fall. They don't seem to have any now, but given that this tie style is more of a fall/winter accessory, maybe I'm looking at the wrong time of year.

Yes, they're probably considered out of season now. You never know when they may show up on clearance. Check Ben Silver's clearance site periodically. I know they've had one or two on there in the past.

william · Apr 10, 2007

RLPL ancient madder ties come up all the time on ebay.

Edward Appleby · Apr 10, 2007

They have them on Polo.com, Purple Label, Ties, no. 31-45

Roger · Apr 10, 2007

Originally Posted by Edward Appleby

They have them on Polo.com, Purple Label, Ties, no. 31-45
Right you are, Edward. Not the colors right now that I can use, but thanks for the tip.

Sam Hober · Apr 10, 2007

Originally Posted by Will

I like them with tweed and flannel glen checks. I've seen paisleys and neats, but none recently. If you find a source, please share. Production was supposed to continue after David Evans, but I haven't seen it
David Evans was purchased by Silk Industries (who also owns Vanners) and the phyiscal plant closed down. The archives, equipment and some staff was moved over to Adamley were we order our Macclesfield prints. So these days you can still order David Evans or Adamly archive prints which includes madders. Artificial madder dye has been used for many years (60+?) howeevr, you might find a few other natural dyes used such as indigo. Currently we have no plans to order any madders, but we are working on a long-term plan to use natural madder root and dye our own madder silks. I am not sure if we will grow the madder on our farm in Thailand or here in the US. In theory you can make a madder print with any pattern.

Alexander Kabbaz · Apr 10, 2007

Originally Posted by Sam Hober

David Evans was purchased by Silk Industries (who also owns Vanners) and the phyiscal plant closed down. The archives, equipment and some staff was moved over to Adamley were we order our Macclesfield prints.

So these days you can still order David Evans or Adamly archive prints which includes madders.

Artificial madder dye has been used for many years (60+?) howeevr, you might find a few other natural dyes used such as indigo.

Currently we have no plans to order any madders, but we are working on a long-term plan to use natural madder root and dye our own madder silks. I am not sure if we will grow the madder on our farm in Thailand or here in the US.

In theory you can make a madder print with any pattern.
Try oak tree bark for your brilliant yellows. We use it here in the art school and it works wonderfully. With oak yellows, indigo blues, and madder reds you will have all the primaries. That plus burn just about anything for your (carbon) blacks and your studio is virtually complete. Any suggestions for non-artificial whites?

Sam Hober · Apr 11, 2007

Originally Posted by Alexander Kabbaz

Try oak tree bark for your brilliant yellows. We use it here in the art school and it works wonderfully. With oak yellows, indigo blues, and madder reds you will have all the primaries. That plus burn just about anything for your (carbon) blacks and your studio is virtually complete. Any suggestions for non-artificial whites?
Alex, Thank you for the suggestions. Your art school sounds very interesting. Do you have a website? I wonder what type of dyes they used at the Ajanta caves in India which are so famous for their colors after all these years.

Film Noir Buff · Apr 11, 2007

I understand that the Italians and Germans are a big market for madder ties. Apparently they like the England of the past. The English don't like them and in America they tend to be a bit darker than the prevailing taste.

Ancient Madder Ties

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