Crockett & Jones Handgrade Dry Leather - Faulty or Not? Help!

Originally Posted by Roman_empire

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Had the same problem with my handgrades. I tried everything (polishing a lot, to polishing once a month, renovateur, tried wax, cream, with color, incolore etc.). Nothing helped.
After a polish they look splendid, within 5 mins of walking the leather was all cracked. I ended up selling the shoes on eBay as I truly hated the look of the leather. I never had a problem with my benchgrades though. I probably won't buy handgrades anymore.

If you tried everything it doesn't seem to be very much I can do.... But I really don't like the look with all the creases and light areas. A shoe salesman told me he only seen similar problems on cheaper Johnston and Murphy...

Did anyone of you guys complain about or return your shoes?

Would you say it is caused by bad leather and that they should be returned to C&J as faulty?

Originally Posted by Roman_empire

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Had the same problem with my handgrades. I tried everything (polishing a lot, to polishing once a month, renovateur, tried wax, cream, with color, incolore etc.). Nothing helped.
After a polish they look splendid, within 5 mins of walking the leather was all cracked. I ended up selling the shoes on eBay as I truly hated the look of the leather. I never had a problem with my benchgrades though. I probably won't buy handgrades anymore.
Did you try a deep cleaning with something like saddle soap or alcohol?

Originally Posted by TKDKid

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Well, I'd say this problem isn't limited to C&J - I've had the same on a pair of Grenson Masterpieces, and I remember this thread from a while ago.
Did you find a solution? How are your Grenson doing?

Reading the link TKD posted, I suspect a cleaning might do it.
What do you think about Saphir Renomat or a mild shoe shampoo?
And then use Renovateur and only thin layers of cream. I will bring them to my cobbler tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Melvin Udall

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Did you find a solution? How are your Grenson doing?

I just applied lots of thin coats of shoe cream to the uppers, giving each coat time to be absorbed by the leather. I think I probably wiped down the shoes between each coat, after the cream had dried, to get rid of any excess as well. I only applied shoe polish when the uppers stopped feeling "dry" to the touch.

It's definitely better, but not perfect. The big problem was that it was on one shoe only; fortunately the shoes are black so it's not too noticeable.

Reading the link TKD posted, I suspect a cleaning might do it.
What do you think about Saphir Renomat or a mild shoe shampoo?
And then use Renovateur and only thin layers of cream. I will bring them to my cobbler tomorrow.

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Looking at your photos again, have you used a darker shoe cream/polish colour than the underlying colour of the leather? If so, then the lighter areas are just the underlying colour of the leather showing through after the darker polish has flaked off from the creases. I had this problem when I tried to darken/antique a pair of chestnut-coloured shoes with dark brown shoe polish. In the end, I gave up on this idea, so I stripped the polish off, applied some neutral shoe cream and then some tan shoe polish, which is of course lighter than the underlying colour. Haven't had any problems since, although the shoes aren't as dark as I'd like them to be.

Originally Posted by TKDKid

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Looking at your photos again, have you used a darker shoe cream/polish colour than the underlying colour of the leather?

I agree it looks almost like it. But I'm using Saphirs light brown cream and polish mostly and have C&J tan polish once or twice. In the can they look much lighter than the shoes are now but the shoes gets darker. Should I be using only neutral?

Originally Posted by Melvin Udall

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I agree it looks almost like it. But I'm using Saphirs light brown cream and polish mostly and have C&J tan polish once or twice. In the can they look much lighter than the shoes are now but the shoes gets darker. Should I be using only neutral?

I can't comment on the dryness of the leather, but it does sound like your choice of shoe cream/polish colour is the reason for the lighter areas. In my experience, shoe uppers don't absorb the colour of shoe cream very well, so as I mentioned above, the dried shoe cream just sits on the surface of the leather and flakes off at the creases, with the problem more noticeable on lighter coloured shoes. That's why the experts use dyes when doing antiquing.

I would suggest using a shoe cream that's lighter in colour than the shoes. I just happened to use neutral cream because I had lots available, and its primary purpose is to prevent the shoe uppers from drying out so the lack of colour doesn't matter. For shoe polish, I would stick to using the C&J tan (it's good stuff anyway) and only use the Saphir light brown occasionally.

Forget the advice on shoe polish - its the leather quality. Not that the polish advice isn't of some general merit.

I've had that problem with one pair of my many Edward Greens. I am not convinced the leather on your shoes is "dry" - however I can understand why it seems that way to you.

The leather on your shoes is of inferior quality ( as on mine). It is more fibrous and the fibres are not only thicker, they are less dense or "tight". Unfortunately this problem often does not come to light until the shoes are lasted, or even later in their life, once they are worn. I am not surprised this has happened with a pair of C&Js as they have had to up their production - and quality often suffers as a result.

I was told my EGs were just too loose fitting on the basis that deep ugly creases only occur when there is too much room in a shoe. Funny it hasn't happened on any other of me EGs ( all the same size etc). However others have said that Hillary Freeman denies EG make any seconds - therefore any flaw or fault is either "character" or the customers fault!

I would suggest sending the photos to Pediwear and see what they suggest - maybe sending them back to C&J?

Originally Posted by TKDKid

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I would suggest using a shoe cream that's lighter in colour than the shoes. I just happened to use neutral cream because I had lots available, and its primary purpose is to prevent the shoe uppers from drying out so the lack of colour doesn't matter. For shoe polish, I would stick to using the C&J tan (it's good stuff anyway) and only use the Saphir light brown occasionally.

You are right! I will stick to using the neutral cream and tan polish.

Originally Posted by Leather man

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Forget the advice on shoe polish - its the leather quality. Not that the polish advice isn't of some general merit.

I've had that problem with one pair of my many Edward Greens. I am not convinced the leather on your shoes is "dry" - however I can understand why it seems that way to you.

The leather on your shoes is of inferior quality ( as on mine). It is more fibrous and the fibres are not only thicker, they are less dense or "tight". Unfortunately this problem often does not come to light until the shoes are lasted, or even later in their life, once they are worn. I am not surprised this has happened with a pair of C&Js as they have had to up their production - and quality often suffers as a result.

I was told my EGs were just too loose fitting on the basis that deep ugly creases only occur when there is too much room in a shoe. Funny it hasn't happened on any other of me EGs ( all the same size etc). However others have said that Hillary Freeman denies EG make any seconds - therefore any flaw or fault is either "character" or the customers fault!

I would suggest sending the photos to Pediwear and see what they suggest - maybe sending them back to C&J?

My cobbler didn't think that they were dry. He laughed at me for using too much cream though. But the colour is perhaps not the main problem, the dark colour and polishing was caused by me attempting to fix the creases and "dry look" of the vamp.

I think you are right about the leather quality! It would explain why the creasing is very different than my C&J Audleys, which dont have any of these problems. Sorry to hear about your EGs. Do you think that C&J will recognise the shoes as faulty because of the leather quality?

I have sent the pictures to Pediwear, they did not comment them. But they have offered me to send the shoes to them for examination. If necessary they may forward the shoes to the C&J factory for a comment. I think I will send the shoes to Pediwear but have hesitated to pay the £30 shipping. Considering the expensive shipping and extra hassel I hope they will be able to help me!

At this point it seems two things should be said

1- Melvin you are committing too much time to this issue. This could indicate a problem on your side- not in what concerns the shoe quality but in what concerns your mental well being

2-Leather Man is probably right. In any case **** happens but **** happens a lot more when a trad brand becomes a designer brand ‘overnight’. C&J have been riding a tidal wave in these last years and of course you cant keep quality levels when the masses are crying for more shoes which means that a lot of money can be made quickly

So my advice is

1-\tTry to think of something else. The weather, your boss, your partner, …baseball??

2-\tBuy Church’s. Nobody loves them so they are sure to be a good choice. In the last week I have been wearing a pair of BNIB Diplomats I had put up for sale here. They cost £370 and I was selling them for £180. Nobody bought them, and I am extremely happy about that as they are wonderful shoes- No creasing/discolouration like your hand grades.

BTW- I have a pair of C&J Weymouth handgrades in my closet sitting there for 2 years because from the pics in this forum I suspect I will become sad after one day of wearing them. On the other hand since they are a few years old maybe they are fine-i.e.from before Prada bought C&J

You are confusing Church with C&J. C&J are still family owned.

BTW please post pics of your well-worn (and enjoyed) Weymouths.

Hi Melvin - re my Edward Greens: I sent them back to the shop who forwarded them on to the factory. At some point early in the process Hillary Freeman ( MD of EG) siezed them and held onto them for over one month. To be fair there were some public holidays in that time but still...........
Anyway I got the reply that others have had in the past - that Edward Green do not use any faulty leather. Their leather is the best there is ipso facto any leather that looks under par cannot be! So I was told that I had bought the wrong size and that the ugly creasing was due to the shoe being too big. I did point out I have 45 other pairs of EGs, none of which have leather issues but to no avail. Another insole was put in to tighten them up - and to cut a long story short they are now too small and have been sent back for said work to be undone.

All this highlights the problem when any company - not just shoemakers - is so sure their product is the best that when a fault occurs they just cannot believe it - or fear the reputation of their company will suffer if they do admit it.

Others on the forum have said in the past that if you ask Edward Green when they sell off their seconds the reply Hillary gives is " We don't make any seconds" Still others say they have indeed bought seconds from EG. It seems to me to be a nonsense to say "We don't make any seconds" - of course if one keeps moving the goal posts.....................................

Originally Posted by countbaron

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At this point it seems two things should be said

1- Melvin you are committing too much time to this issue. This could indicate a problem on your side- not in what concerns the shoe quality but in what concerns your mental well being

2-Leather Man is probably right. In any case **** happens but **** happens a lot more when a trad brand becomes a designer brand "˜overnight'. C&J have been riding a tidal wave in these last years and of course you cant keep quality levels when the masses are crying for more shoes which means that a lot of money can be made quickly

So my advice is

1-\tTry to think of something else. The weather, your boss, your partner, ...baseball??

2-\tBuy Church's. Nobody loves them so they are sure to be a good choice. In the last week I have been wearing a pair of BNIB Diplomats I had put up for sale here. They cost £370 and I was selling them for £180. Nobody bought them, and I am extremely happy about that as they are wonderful shoes- No creasing/discolouration like your hand grades.

BTW- I have a pair of C&J Weymouth handgrades in my closet sitting there for 2 years because from the pics in this forum I suspect I will become sad after one day of wearing them. On the other hand since they are a few years old maybe they are fine-i.e.from before Prada bought C&J

What's more re; Church's - if you do get leather quality issues it won't seems so bad as you knew already what terrible shoes they really are!! To be serious for a moment, I once had leather quality issues with a pair of Church's - and sent them back. Their customer service was fantastic - no problem, they made me a new pair without any argument.

Originally Posted by Leather man

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Hi Melvin - re my Edward Greens: I sent them back to the shop who forwarded them on to the factory. At some point early in the process Hillary Freeman ( MD of EG) siezed them and held onto them for over one month. To be fair there were some public holidays in that time but still...........
Anyway I got the reply that others have had in the past - that Edward Green do not use any faulty leather. Their leather is the best there is ipso facto any leather that looks under par cannot be! So I was told that I had bought the wrong size and that the ugly creasing was due to the shoe being too big. I did point out I have 45 other pairs of EGs, none of which have leather issues but to no avail. Another insole was put in to tighten them up - and to cut a long story short they are now too small and have been sent back for said work to be undone.

All this highlights the problem when any company - not just shoemakers - is so sure their product is the best that when a fault occurs they just cannot believe it - or fear the reputation of their company will suffer if they do admit it.

Others on the forum have said in the past that if you ask Edward Green when they sell off their seconds the reply Hillary gives is " We don't make any seconds" Still others say they have indeed bought seconds from EG. It seems to me to be a nonsense to say "We don't make any seconds" - of course if one keeps moving the goal posts.....................................

They don't have a leg to stand on given that you have 45 pairs! Nice sample: suggests that 1/50 of their shoes will have faults - roughly 2%. You could probably trace the fault to the batch of hides used. Hey, if anyone else has a similar fault with their EGs you can do a match up - I assume the number coding is in the shoes?

Originally Posted by __PG__

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You are confusing Church with C&J. C&J are still family owned.

.

I know that very well. I was trying to be ironic.

You see C&J is today the equivalent of a "˜designer brand' in SF-like circles- Who else has to have a doorman in their flagship shop during sales to keep the numbers of customers at an acceptable level?

Hence the new bigger flagship I guess.

As for E&Gs and seconds that of course is total BS. Just pop by Northampton and they will show you shoes at reduced prices. Are they seconds?- well the terms 'second' is very often what the maker wants it to be

People here have reported receiving MTO shoes with 'second'-like problems and I have bought 'seconds' with no apparent problems. Classifying a shoe as 'Second' is often a way to justify selling shoes below normal price

I have a pair of c&j weymouth with ugly creasing. Is the leather on this pair also dry? Or have I been applying too much cream? I use this at most once a week and polish this maybe twice a month. Any thoughts? Thanks.

The creasing on your Weymouths is not ugly IMO. Notice that within the folds of leather the creases are very fine. That "folding" ( better description than creasing here) is I am afraid common on most wholecuts and is in the nature of having a plain vamp. I say most because whilst I own a few wholecuts I do not own Edward Green's Newbury and have never seen one that has real mileage on it.

So, no I don't think your Weymouths are made from dry leather ( FWIW mine look just the same). The creasing I have on my EGs and the OP has on his C&Js is a different animal - each crease is broad, deep and just speaks of B grade leather.

However, at the end of the day leather is a natural material and therefore we cannot expect consistency. Nevertheless what the parameters are, ie what you or the shoemaker will tolerate is down to you and them.

I will say that my best wholecut by far is a Gaziano and Girling - Hanly in Vintage Cedar - its holding up brilliantly.