Per Se vs. Eleven Madison Park

Originally Posted by Mark from Plano

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Don't let your friends and family read this.

Originally Posted by hopkins_student

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I see. And is $90 corkage even within 2 SD of the mean in NYC?
$90 is pretty outrageous, but to think you could bring in a $140 bottle of Dom, pay the $90 fee and still be saving $350 compared to their wine list is just ridiculous. Or, with the '95 Dom Oeno, save a whopping $600 compared to the list. Still, I'd recommend it for the OP, it's a special event.

You know, people can rail on the prices set by Keller's somm, but Per Se is one of the most plush, well located dining rooms on the planet. That real estate is shockingly expensive (although I don't know his terms with the TW people). And the city is full of people willing to pay those marsupialed mark ups. Granted, the wine list at TFL is also fairly laughable, but the guy's overhead is just insane. I mean really, there are a handful of restaurants in the world that have as many costs as the operation Keller runs in NYC. While there are places I'd rather dine for $300 in the US, I would never get mad at him for it being expensive. Same for Masa. Look where it is? What do you ******* expect? And with the fish they're getting? People complain but they don't take into account the cost of running these places. They're really a labor of love/insanity. Keller could make a hell of a lot more money putting out a much shittier product.

Originally Posted by gomestar

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I don't disagree. Very different restaurants and a different scene. But it should be worth noting that it's also a different world price wise - the basic menu at EMP is like $100 a person, and the wine list is rather reasonable, while Per Se is $300 a person with no other options other than the bar. And Per Se's wine list is absolutely outrageous.

If I'm with friends and family, I'd prefer EMP, if I'm with somebody of importance, Per Se.

Your numbers are off.

EMP's four-course meal is 125 and their tasting in 195. Neither of those numbers include tax and tip. The latter ends up being pretty darn close to Per Se's 295 as it includes tax and tip.

I have lived in New York for the past four years and spend most of my disposable income on food. My two best meals in this city have both been at Per Se (the most recent being Tuesday of this past week). I have had multiple meals at EMP, and while I enjoy the space, think the service is very good, and find the food enjoyable, if not memorable, none of the meals that I have had there even come close to Per Se.

Space: Small comfortable dining room overlooking central park. When the sun goes down, they turn the fireplace on. What more could you want.

Food: Our most recent meal involved a chilled carrot soup that was the best bite of food I have had in years. Freaking carrot soup. That is the magic of Per Se: the ingredients and technique can make often forgotten ingredients true stars of a meal.

Service: After 2 meals and nearly 30 courses (we were treated to a 19 course extravaganza this past visit) it has been truly flawless.

So, go to Per Se, you won't be disappointed.

Originally Posted by hopkins_student

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Also, I think my parents might be there for a few nights and they're not quite as into haute cuisine as we are. Can anyone make any suggestions for a few really great places that do less adventurous cuisine? Thanks, H_S.

When they visit, I take my mom and dad to places like Craft, Blue Hill, and Minetta Tavern. Relatively simple food that still hits the spot.

Originally Posted by nmprisons

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When they visit, I take my mom and dad to places like Craft, Blue Hill, and Minetta Tavern. Relatively simple food that still hits the spot.

Those are great suggestions.

Craft, Grammercy Tavern etc are great examples of food that most people would find very appealing and accessible.

Agreed. Grammercy Tavern is another great suggestion for accessible food, particularly for visitors of NYC because it is such an institution.

Originally Posted by SField

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You know, people can rail on the prices set by Keller's somm, but Per Se is one of the most plush, well located dining rooms on the planet. That real estate is shockingly expensive (although I don't know his terms with the TW people). And the city is full of people willing to pay those marsupialed mark ups. Granted, the wine list at TFL is also fairly laughable, but the guy's overhead is just insane. I mean really, there are a handful of restaurants in the world that have as many costs as the operation Keller runs in NYC. While there are places I'd rather dine for $300 in the US, I would never get mad at him for it being expensive. Same for Masa. Look where it is? What do you ******* expect? And with the fish they're getting? People complain but they don't take into account the cost of running these places. They're really a labor of love/insanity. Keller could make a hell of a lot more money putting out a much shittier product.

I don't know what it costs to run those places but that wine list bascially says to me "Don't dine here unless A) You know nothing about what wine should cost and B) you are so rich that you don't care." I expect to pay more, perhaps even a lot more, than retail at very nice places but that list is still nuts.

I went to Robuchon, not the Atelier but the big brother, in Vegas earlier this year and it costs more than Per Se and the list was much better and even had some very good deals (in addition to the to-be-expected "OMG it's DRC/Lafite let's get it honey!!" bottles). So it can be done.

I mean listen I agree with you to an extent, but also knowing the margins of some of these places, it kind of requires wine to go for that many times retail for them to remain solvent. It takes little to no labor/knowledge to have those there and people pay a premium. They're basically printing money.

That said, as I've said before, I'm really not into wine with food. I like wine with food, but I really have a big problem paying for it. I have more respect for places like Graham Elliot with wine programs aimed at finding gems that are excellent in quality, that actually took labor on the part of the somm rather than just having a list full of war horses that even a total schmuck with no knowledge could come up with.

I so rarely order bottles with dinner anymore that it doesn't bother me. There are so few times that I really want one bottle with all my food, and I do prefer drinking most great wines on their own. I think they deserve that attention, and I almost always feel (especially with reds,) that food ruins my palate for the wine. I'm in a tiny minority here, but I've most enjoyed great wine without food, on a 3/4 full stomach.

Originally Posted by SField

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I so rarely order bottles with dinner anymore that it doesn't bother me. There are so few times that I really want one bottle with all my food, and I do prefer drinking most great wines on their own. I think they deserve that attention, and I almost always feel (especially with reds,) that food ruins my palate for the wine. I'm in a tiny minority here, but I've most enjoyed great wine without food, on a 3/4 full stomach.
Same here. If I have any wine with my meal, then it's a glass for each course or one for the entire meal. I like wine, but more often than not, I don't order wine.

Originally Posted by SField

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You know, people can rail on the prices set by Keller's somm, but Per Se is one of the most plush, well located dining rooms on the planet.

I actually like EMP's location better. No sweeping Central Park views, but it's still a very grand room that is well appointed and a stroll through Maison Square Park after a big meal is very nice. PS, while I agree very plush and a super prime location with real estate that is $$$$ and worth it, is still on the fourth floor of a shopping mall.

Originally Posted by nmprisons

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Agreed. Grammercy Tavern is another great suggestion for accessible food, particularly for visitors of NYC because it is such an institution.
+1, GT is awesome and consistently great.

Originally Posted by nmprisons

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Your numbers are off. EMP's four-course meal is 125 and their tasting in 195. Neither of those numbers include tax and tip. The latter ends up being pretty darn close to Per Se's 295 as it includes tax and tip.
true, I forgot about the EMP menu change. I don't like the tic-tac-toe setup, but so it goes. On the flip side, there's enough "supplemental" options on the Per Se menu that it's easy to bump the overall price from $295 to $450 without much effort.

Per Se was a memorable meal though I wouldn't return on my dime.

Dinner for three including wine ($190) was $1457.00
Two orders of the truffle risotto @150 per helped bump this up. I figured if i was there I might as well try it.
Some of the courses were wonderful, others just okay. Too much money for dinner, IMO.

does the $295 at per se include tax as well as tip?

Originally Posted by Pat

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does the $295 at per se include tax as well as tip?

Yes. If you were to order nothing else and give them $295 at the end of your meal, you would leave in their good graces.