NYC Finance Internship/Job?

Originally Posted by Yachting Man

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I've been in investment banking for over 25 long and sleepless years. I've worked at both a traditional Swiss boutique in Switzerland and BB banks in London and NY.

Sorry to threadjack (pm works if you'd rather not change topic on the thread) but I was wondering if you could give a more candid perspective on the differences between Europe/US/boutique/BB? I know the traditional stereotypes they have, but it's hard to really ask people what differentiates the firms in terms of atmosphere, culture, etc. (ie, ask a boutique banker why they like their boutique and they'll just say more responsibility than at a BB, but obviously never really speak ill of their new firm).

I guess what it boils down to, is should I really care about the supposed "culture" of a bank?

Originally Posted by Yachting Man

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Just because one is rich in a monetary fashion does not enrich their life nor does it make them happy. Frankly, I don't consider myself rich in any fashion.

The things in life worth having are things you cannot buy.

Damn. You are too wise. Not even being sarcastic.

I was hoping you'd come out with a list of exotics so I could proceed to kiss ass, but now I'm in an awkward spot.

Most of the richest people I know don't show it unless you know them well. I mean you would never know a friend was the grand daughter of the owner of one of the largest hedge funds in the world by the way she acts.

I want to be a trader because I am a degenerate gambler, and its the only healthy way I can feed my urges. JK, thats just how I have heard traders being described at work. Really I just find it the most intriguing aspect. I enjoy watching charts, and also developing models in excel (built a pair trading model today), although I don't really understand VBA let alone developing algos. I can see myself trading from home once I gain some experience, or maybe even starting my own hedge fund. Although I find it painful watching the current trader allocate block trades at work. I can also add some publications to my resume as I currently co-write articles for Lee Munson on seeking alpha. As previously stated, I do want to seek mass monetary gain, but I am also genuinely interested in finance. I appreciate people providing me the tip to go to WSO, but I am really looking for some direct connections if anyone has any.

BTW, just that I work as a sales trader (was recruited while in uni, still 1 year to go before I get meh bachelors). Then I would have 2+ yrs experience and I'd aspire to a trading position as well. Should we maybe do a "enchance my resume/cover letter" thread, so more experienced guys can give some tips or points how to make your resume more attractive (eg. what to add, take out, mention etc). Why don't you seek internships at smaller prop-shops or market makers (most are based in Chicago), because sell-side trading is a whole different game, but maybe that's what ur interested in. And the pure prop is a yesterday's thing @ big banks. As far as I've heard, traders @ IB's rarely succeed outside the comfortable flow of the bank, but prop and mkt making shops really attract the raw trading talent, because you eat what you kill there. Although you won't probably kill anything for a while when you start... BTW, I'm building models in my spare time in excel/matlab as well, currently working on imp.vol curves of distillates to find overpriced 2sd's OTM options for shorting. Learning VBA on my own as well - maybe we can stay in touch?

Originally Posted by meph

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Sorry to threadjack (pm works if you'd rather not change topic on the thread) but I was wondering if you could give a more candid perspective on the differences between Europe/US/boutique/BB? I know the traditional stereotypes they have, but it's hard to really ask people what differentiates the firms in terms of atmosphere, culture, etc. (ie, ask a boutique banker why they like their boutique and they'll just say more responsibility than at a BB, but obviously never really speak ill of their new firm).

I guess what it boils down to, is should I really care about the supposed "culture" of a bank?

I wouldn't worry about the culture / work style in boutique vs. BB in your first few years. You'll be doing the same menial tasks. Do take note though of the bank's overall agenda. All divisions of investment banking provide the same basic services to their clients with the same goal of making the bank and the individual lots of money, but they go about these goals in different manners.

For example: I spent my first seven years at a Swiss boutique back when Swiss banks were truly known for honoring their client's anonymity. I won't get too into it, but this was greatly appealing to me. Even though I was only there to do mindless tasks until I was in my last two years the idea of dealing with these clients intrigued me. It's the small things that count, remember that. The grand plot of investment banking is all the same... make the bank money (at times clients do get burned).

Avoid any kind of start up. In general these fall apart within the first year.

Originally Posted by stayclassy

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I want to be a trader because I am a degenerate gambler, and its the only healthy way I can feed my urges. JK, thats just how I have heard traders being described at work. Really I just find it the most intriguing aspect. I enjoy watching charts, and also developing models in excel (built a pair trading model today), although I don't really understand VBA let alone developing algos. I can see myself trading from home once I gain some experience, or maybe even starting my own hedge fund. Although I find it painful watching the current trader allocate block trades at work. I can also add some publications to my resume as I currently co-write articles for Lee Munson on seeking alpha. As previously stated, I do want to seek mass monetary gain, but I am also genuinely interested in finance. I appreciate people providing me the tip to go to WSO, but I am really looking for some direct connections if anyone has any.

Not to burst your bubble, in general though trading for any IBank division doesn't get interesting until years later. As for hedge funds... tricky business. Common conversation between fellow MD's has to do with starting and maintaining a successful HF. The odds are horrible.

Connections? I admit connections will take you far, but you have to have a serious friendship for them to really pull strings for you. I won't even do it for my son (mostly because I don't want him in this profession).

I wish you the best of luck.

Originally Posted by Yachting Man

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I won't even do it for my son (mostly because I don't want him in this profession).


You know, I hear this kind of sentiment a lot -- be it investment banking, lawyering, policing etc. What profession would you recommend for you son?

I just got my hours for my internship, and I'm going to be clocking 77+ hours a week. Is this normal, for interns, and when you become a full time analyst?

Assuming the offer is for I-banking at good large location then no 77 hours is not normal - its vacation. I'd realistically expect 100+ hours a week (assuming nothing has changed since I did my internship in 04)

I feel lucky enough to have done the internship, realized I would be miserable (albeit rich) in banking and moved to the slightly less lucrative consulting world (which I actually love)

Originally Posted by ZhiMingBuFanDe

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I just got my hours for my internship, and I'm going to be clocking 77+ hours a week. Is this normal, for interns, and when you become a full time analyst?

You somehow made it through the interview process without being aware of the hours the job entails? I've yet to hear of anyone who regularly does less than 80 a week. So yea... I suppose you should be pretty happy to be only working 77.

If you work 77 hours a week at a BB bank, you're probably getting fired, or the most amazing thing since sliced bread.

Originally Posted by warmpi

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You know, I hear this kind of sentiment a lot -- be it investment banking, lawyering, policing etc. What profession would you recommend for you son?

I want my son to be happy. As long as he works hard at it, it doesn't matter to me what he does. My son is quite artistic and I'd like to maybe see him try advertising / marketing.

In general I believe that people should work hard in life at something they enjoy and avoid the direct pursuit of money and power. Those are the benefits to doing something you enjoy and being good at it. From experience I have found that the price you pay in this industry with your physical health, sanity, mental health and lack of family life / friends is too high a price just to accrue a small fortune that you can't enjoy until you're too old anyways. In 26 years I've missed 12 days of work. In my late 30's I had a heart attack while at work and was in the hospital for 10 days. The other two days were my honeymoon. This job is a lifestyle, there isn't an off switch when you head home and hang up your hat, I have lived this job 7 days a week for 26 years.

Originally Posted by ZhiMingBuFanDe

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I just got my hours for my internship, and I'm going to be clocking 77+ hours a week. Is this normal, for interns, and when you become a full time analyst?

An easy week is 80 hours. You can go over 100 hours per week when things are busy (at your level). The hours never get better. The office hours do, but you're overall involvement with the job increases. The longer you stick around the more risk you are responsible for and the more people expect from you. It's very simple; I don't see it as a job anymore. It's a lifestyle 24/7/365.

Originally Posted by Yachting Man

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I want my son to be happy. As long as he works hard at it, it doesn't matter to me what he does. My son is quite artistic and I'd like to maybe see him try advertising / marketing.

In general I believe that people should work hard in life at something they enjoy and avoid the direct pursuit of money and power. Those are the benefits to doing something you enjoy and being good at it. From experience I have found that the price you pay in this industry with your physical health, sanity, mental health and lack of family life / friends is too high a price just to accrue a small fortune that you can't enjoy until you're too old anyways. In 26 years I've missed 12 days of work. In my late 30's I had a heart attack while at work and was in the hospital for 10 days. The other two days were my honeymoon. This job is a lifestyle, there isn't an off switch when you head home and hang up your hat, I have lived this job 7 days a week for 26 years.



An easy week is 80 hours. You can go over 100 hours per week when things are busy (at your level). The hours never get better. The office hours do, but you're overall involvement with the job increases. The longer you stick around the more risk you are responsible for and the more people expect from you. It's very simple; I don't see it as a job anymore. It's a lifestyle 24/7/365.


/posted from my place in Monaco, which is different from my place in NYC.

Originally Posted by Yachting Man

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In general I believe that people should work hard in life at something they enjoy and avoid the direct pursuit of money and power. Those are the benefits to doing something you enjoy and being good at it. From experience I have found that the price you pay in this industry with your physical health, sanity, mental health and lack of family life / friends is too high a price just to accrue a small fortune that you can't enjoy until you're too old anyways. In 26 years I've missed 12 days of work. In my late 30's I had a heart attack while at work and was in the hospital for 10 days. The other two days were my honeymoon. This job is a lifestyle, there isn't an off switch when you head home and hang up your hat, I have lived this job 7 days a week for 26 years.

This is just ******* awesome. No joke. Be it how sadistic, this is what I am aiming to pursue for my future career. Plus, I dont really honestly care for the fact if I dont have proper time for family or friends. Especially friends havent been a substantial part of my life for the last 5 years and I guess by now I'm used to it.

Survival of the fittest.