Let's see your weight loss

Originally Posted by Eason

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It's not an issue of behavior, it's just an issue of behavior. I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Not sure though.
OK. My point, as clearly as I can make it, is this: Lack of willpower does not drive behavioral disorders; behavioral disorders can, by way of frustration and continuous suffering to the individual, promote a feeling of lost will (what Rambo was describing). Any lack of will isn't what causes one to over eat, fail at their diet, etc., but is merely a symptom of the underlying behavioral disorder, which is causing this. The roots of this behavior lie much deeper than a mere lack of free will--or some might say "free won't". One is cause, the other is an effect.

Originally Posted by mm84321

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OK. My point, as clearly as I can make it, is this:

Lack of willpower does not drive behavioral disorders; behavioral disorders can, by way of frustration and continuous suffering to the individual, promote a feeling of lost will (what Rambo was describing). Any lack of will isn't what causes one to over eat, fail at their diet, etc., but is merely a symptom of the underlying behavioral disorder, which is causing this. The roots of this behavior lie much deeper than a mere lack of free will--or some might say "free won't".

One is cause, the other is an effect.

You seriously need to learn to gracefully concede a point when you're wrong. One of these days you're going to do this IRL and somebody who's as big of a douchebag as I am is going to call you out in front of your peers and future employers and laugh at you. Loudly. It'll probably end up on Tosh.0 so that even the computer illiterate see it.

Originally Posted by HgaleK

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You seriously need to learn to gracefully concede a point when you're wrong. One of these days you're going to do this IRL and somebody who's as big of a douchebag as I am is going to call you out in front of your peers and future employers and laugh at you. Loudly. It'll probably end up on Tosh.0 so that even the computer illiterate see it.
If I am wrong, could you please point out in what way so that I may actually have something to concede to? So far, you haven't done a very good job at doing so.

So everyone who is fat has an underlying behavioral disorder, but it's NOT willpower, it's something serious and pervasive requiring professional psychological help instead of going to the gym and eating healthier.

Originally Posted by Eason

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So everyone who is fat has an underlying behavioral disorder, but it's NOT willpower, it's something serious and pervasive requiring professional psychological help instead of going to the gym and eating healthier.
No, not everyone. I am addressing this specifically in response to being questioned the difference between a lack of willpower and a behavioral disorder. What is universal is the misconception that all fat people get, and stay, that way because they lack the willpower to simply do anything about it. Telling an obese person that they ought to exercise more self control is akin to telling someone with osteoporosis to just stop having brittle bones; it does little in way of getting to the root of the problem.

You're begging the question, that isn't a universal misconception. It's true for most people, but it's no secret that some people get themselves in terrible physical condition as a result of psychological problems/trauma, just like eating disorders on the other end of the spectrum such as anorexia and bulimia.

Originally Posted by Eason

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You're begging the question, that isn't a universal misconception. It's true for most people, but it's no secret that some people get themselves in terrible physical condition as a result of psychological problems/trauma, just like eating disorders on the other end of the spectrum such as anorexia and bulimia.
I agree. Individuals who do experience such eating disorders generally fall into the category of those I previously described as suffering from behavioral disorders (as a result of certain psychological issues in response to trauma and/or abuse). However, it has been proposed that, at least in some cases, the classification of anorexia and bulimia as behavioral disorders may not be a wholly accurate one. It may be another instance of reversed causality--as it seems to be the case with a lack of willpower and the obese. The idea is that the disordered eating of some anorexics, and perhaps bulimics, could actually be a result of certain physiological factors, as opposed to psychological ones. It could be that, in fact, any psychological issues one experiences in conjunction with their eating disorder, are actually the effect of the physical, and the ensuing social, impacts of their disease (rather than the cause). Ask the question: Is one more likely to develop an eating disorder if they are taunted and ostracized for being overweight? To suffer from the insecurity of being fat? So, which comes first? The disordered behavior, or the disordered fat accumulation? The case of anorexia may be a bit more convincing than bulimia (though evidence does exist to suggest both conditions share certain physiological origin*). In the case of anorexia, the behavior of undereating may be a compensatory response to a physiological condition, just as the behavior of overeating can. Any hormonal abnormality that makes it difficult to store calories as fat--the fat cell, for example, becoming prematurely or abnormally resistant to insulin--could conceivably induce a compensatory inhibition of eating behavior and/or an increase in energy expended (think excessive exercise). What appears to be purely a behavioral phenomenon, the anorexia itself, would be the compensatory response to a physiological problem, the inability to store calories after a meal in the energy buffer of the fat tissue. To say that all anorexics and bulimics suffer solely from a biological disease as the root of their condition is not something I'm prepared to do, nor do I necessarily believe such an assumption could possibly be true. There are plenty of other reasons someone will turn to abusing food, and subsequently develop such disordered patterns of behavior. Correctly identifying cause and effect in these conditions is difficult to do on a broad level, and is largely dependent on individual circumstances. Until we rid ourselves of the notion that we get fat because we just don't know how to say "no", and don't get enough exercise, and accept--or at least consider--the alternative hypotheses, we will never know for sure. *One of the most cited studies, by University of Washington researcher Adam Drewnowski, found that women who were given a drug that blocks opioid receptors consume less sweet, high-fat foods – but only if they were bulimic. [...] The opioid blocker ‘works, we see it,’ he says. ‘But only in a person whose system is disturbed'” (Fisher, 2005, p. 63). This may prove that sugar is therefore acting on the opiate receptors in the brain like certain drugs do. Because this experiment only worked on bulimics, it is possible that, just like drug addicts, “one does not tend to get addicted to a substance unless there was an imbalance in the system prior to initiation to the drug” (McDonald, 2005). Link to the study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1313591

WTF? I don't even know what is being talked about here at this point. The person I was replying to was asking for advice on how to kick his junk food habit. I have no idea what psychological disorders would have to do with that.

FWIW.. Why you would argue with the idea of setting good strategies/building good habits as a way to lose weight?

your alternative hypothesis is that something else causes somebody to be obese which causes them not be able to say no to food?


i believe that's called compulsive overeating or food addiction and its characterized by a lack of willpower to say no.

i dont think this is something where the cause and effect is separate, but it's like a downward spiral.

there might be some kind of underlying depression or anxiety that causes a person to want food (maybe carbs for serotonin) which causes obesity which causes depression which causes more desire for food.

However there's nothing in the body that's forcing you to keep eating. you might have a stronger desire to eat, but having a strong desire doesnt mean you cant say no. simply prescribing medication or having the patient undergo a behavioral modification program doesnt do anything unless the patient complies.


also not feeding your body when you've eaten enough food is called common sense.

Originally Posted by mm84321

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colinpowell.jpg

Originally Posted by indesertum

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your alternative hypothesis is that something else causes somebody to be obese which causes them not be able to say no to food?
I think you know very well what my alternative hypothesis is.

i believe that's called compulsive overeating or food addiction and its characterized by a lack of willpower to say no.

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So, if one was just taught how to say no to raiding the cookie jar in response to negative psychological stimuli, that would solve everything? I believe it goes much deeper than willpower. I think, in the case of compulsive overeating, or BED, it is about certain underlying psychological and emotional disturbances. Their lack of will is not what caused any of these issues to manifest in the first place, so why would it be the cause of their overeating?

i dont think this is something where the cause and effect is separate, but it's like a downward spiral. there might be some kind of underlying depression or anxiety that causes a person to want food (maybe carbs for serotonin) which causes obesity which causes depression which causes more desire for food.

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Correct; I agree. But the salient question to ask: which came first?

However there's nothing in the body that's forcing you to keep eating.

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A lack of nourishment to the cells to properly maintain normal metabolic processes will. And, in the case of hyperinsulinemics, high insulin will. With binge eaters, it is most likely a combination of psychological and physiological factors.

you might have a stronger desire to eat, but having a strong desire doesnt mean you cant say no. simply prescribing medication or having the patient undergo a behavioral modification program doesnt do anything unless the patient complies.

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Nothing can be accomplished until the underlying disorder is treated. Individuals that seek proper treatment is something that requires will.

also not feeding your body when you've eaten enough food is called common sense.

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That's called satiety.

Diet

Exercise

Genetics

The mix and results can be different for everyone, but these are the factors.

Originally Posted by JMRouse

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Diet

Exercise

Genetics
The mix and results can be different for everyone, but these are the factors.

Biological propensity might be a better term, as such things could arise from more then just genetics (such epigenetic sources or from developmental plasticity)

Originally Posted by Gradstudent78

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Biological propensity might be a better term, as such things could arise from more then just genetics (such epigenetic sources or from developmental plasticity)

Precisely.

It took a great effort of willpower to read the last two pages.

Digme, great job by both of you.

Labour Day will be two years since I started my new way of eating. Weight is still off and I'm shooting for 205# by the end of the year. 214 this morning, which is 42# off my highest.