Mod to Suedehead

Originally Posted by Alex Roest

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I do smile at times though at the suggestion that the Look that emerged in and around London c 1968 / 69 was exclusive to the working class yobbo...

Yeah, I was a middle-class yobbo.

I cannot see how anyone who was a skinhead back then know what the scene was all about unless they was involved in a gang, or went to football.
The ones that was not into gangs and football, never really lived the life of a true skinhead, You may be able to talk about the cloths and music, but you would have been a outsider, and have limited knowledge of the subject.

Being part of a gang was about friendship, Comradeship, Caring about your mates, supporting each other, knowing that we was part of something and never on our own, Knowing that you always had back up.
These things helped me when i joined the Army, Because i had been a gang member, I knew how to behave.
The Sargent Major said we are not interested in Loners, Individuals or odd balls, It all about being part of a team, a Unit
The only time in my whole life where i knew people cared about me was in a gang and later being in the Army.

I understand what Roy means, particularly when he compares mates to the comradeship in the army. I came in from outside but kind of got grafted on. However I can also remember people who weren't typical, not many but they were there. There are always exceptions who test the rule.

With a subject like this it depends on how you define it. How do you define a skinhead? Roy is understandably sure of his definition. He wouldn't have included the guys who wrote to the NME who said they were skinheads who went to a private school, but they included themselves, they felt themselves to be part of it. I have no idea whether they went to football or were in a gang outside school, or whether they were kidding themselves.

I went to college, but I didn't like the social scene there, so I spent my time outside college with my mates, dated the same girls, went to football, got in a few fights and so on. I felt part of that scene, I was sure who I was, and it was my definition that mattered to me. I don't know how 'typical' the Lewisham area was, all I knew was what it was like around there. I had no way of comparing it to where Roy was brought up and no way of comparing his experience to mine.

Roy is one of the most valuable 'voices' we have on this thread. When the book comes out (I hope!!!) there will be such a lot from him in there.

Originally Posted by browniecj

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Why,thank-you Little Queenie.I will buy you a drink-next time we meet.

Mine's a Martini and lemonade, thank-you.

Originally Posted by Lasttye

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But i can only go on by my own experiences, You mentioned me in Gangs and the Aggro, but i was also a very smart skinhead, Many was a reluctant Skinhead, that did not like the violence, but by and large they kept it to themselves, We was all drawn into the madness, including me.

Lastly i had no time for Skinheads who would never cover your back , and run away at the first wiff of trouble, it was a violent world back then and you had to rely on your mates. yes some was only into the Cloths and Music, But they was not in my world, i would not want em.

Just to add Kingstonian, I do not think you have ever given your age, As i have said my age was 15 in 69, So i saw that World through a 15 year olds eyes,

Yes you can only go by your own experience. I make the same mistake of generalising myself when I say 'Everybody had 'This is Soul'...etc.'

You must have been smartly dressed if you shopped with Mr. Simons for all those years.

A good proportion of clientele at the bigger dance halls would wear suits and button downs but may not have been aggro- minded though. What did people wear if they were not into heavy rock? Suit and button down was almost the default choice.

Point taken about age. I would be two years older than you. My younger brother was your age and I have an idea what he was up to back in the day. As you say, you make your choices to some extent. I definitely steered clear of trouble wherever possible.

Originally Posted by Lasttye

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I cannot see how anyone who was a skinhead back then know what the scene was all about unless they was involved in a gang, or went to football.
The ones that was not into gangs and football, never really lived the life of a true skinhead, You may be able to talk about the cloths and music, but you would have been a outsider, and have limited knowledge of the subject.

Being part of a gang was about friendship, Comradeship, Caring about your mates, supporting each other, knowing that we was part of something and never on our own, Knowing that you always had back up.
These things helped me when i joined the Army, Because i had been a gang member, I knew how to behave.
The Sargent Major said we are not interested in Loners, Individuals or odd balls, It all about being part of a team, a Unit
The only time in my whole life where i knew people cared about me was in a gang and later being in the Army.

Depends on definitions again. This forum is from a clothes angle. So if you were in London and bought from the right shops you have the clothes angle covered.

The gang thing is different. We all had mates but those mates may not have been looking for a punch up every week end. Family is also important - particularly if you are from a big family.

My view of football is also different. I needed to make a few shillings so the football got knocked on the head when I had Saturday work. The thought of travelling long distances to away matchs never entered my head.

Of cause Family is important, My Mum and Dad was always there for me, I should have mentioned Family, But i was talking about outside Family, Parents never knew what their Children are up too.

I can see where you are coming from with the bigger dance halls, You may be able to slip in just a couple of you, But in a local club you could not do this, You would be seen as a outsider, and they would be on you, Asking where you from? who you support, if you did not come up with the right answers you would be in danger of a kicking, But if you walked in firm handed, You knew it was unlikely, but in saying that.. if you was out numbered a gang fight would happen, but a least you stood a chance, On your own you had no chance.

Yes this thread is about the Cloths angle, and i am happy with this, But people on here have shown a interest in the period in General,
This thread has developed, People have become friends, some of us have met, and we have a get together this Summer,
Already with MoM's hard work.. a book is gonna come out of this thread, Written by MoM, and with some little input by the People who was there. All peoples opinions are welcome including disagreements,

Originally Posted by Man-of-Mystery

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Aye... well... hmmm... (bunty, you're the TV buff so tell me where that comes from).

I think the folks at FP may well be indulging in a bit of manipulative hindsight here. The FP I bought (in S E London) was white with two very thin piping stripes, one navy and one sky blue. I can't readily think of a football team that had precisely those colours. My recollection of myself and others wearing them was them we wore the colours we thought looked good on us. I didn't spot ranks of blokes in claret and blue FPs at Selhurst Park or Upton Park or in blue and white at Loftus Road for example. Although maybe there could have been some impetus to choose one in your team's colours I think that's FP Co having a 'yeah, right' moment!

I also noticed, that mod pic of 1964, has, piping on the sleeves...so the pics don't add up with the idea that it happened in the late 60s.

Originally Posted by Lasttye

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Of cause Family is important, My Mum and Dad was always there for me, I should have mentioned Family, But i was talking about outside Family, Parents never knew what their Children are up too.

I can see where you are coming from with the bigger dance halls, You may be able to slip in just a couple of you, But in a local club you could not do this, You would be seen as a outsider, and they would be on you, Asking where you from? who you support, if you did not come up with the right answers you would be in danger of a kicking, But if you walked in firm handed, You knew it was unlikely, but in saying that.. if you was out numbered a gang fight would happen, but a least you stood a chance, On your own you had no chance.

Yes this thread is about the Cloths angle, and i am happy with this, But people on here have shown a interest in the period in General,
This thread has developed, People have become friends, some of us have met, and we have a get together this Summer,
Already with MoM's hard work.. a book is gonna come out of this thread, Written by MoM, and with some little input by the People who was there. All peoples opinions are welcome including disagreements,

I'll support anyone who writes a book about the Original Skinheads and what it was really like. You have my backing (not that means much). Incidentally, I were one of the people behind getting Richard Allen's "Skinhead" republished, in the 1990s. I'm mentioned in the acknowledgements. My partner, also used to work for Penguin books, but the book industry has changed a lot, even in the last 10 years and we're now out of the loop.

Once MoM has got the first draft together (the manuscript as its called in book jargon), it'll be a matter of figuring out the next steps. As its a highly specialised book, and I am guessing he's unpublished to date (that is, first time author), his best bet is to approach the smaller publishing houses. From there, any follow up, might work with the larger publishers, once you've got a track record. But start with the smaller publishing houses in London is my recommendation.

Originally Posted by raging_rapid

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As its a highly specialised book, and I am guessing he's unpublished to date (that is, first time author), his best bet is to approach the smaller publishing houses. From there, any follow up, might work with the larger publishers, once you've got a track record. But start with the smaller publishing houses in London is my recommendation.

I run a literary agency, so I was thinking along those lines, but thanks anyway.

Originally Posted by Lasttye

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Already with MoM's hard work.. a book is gonna come out of this thread, Written by MoM, and with some little input by the People who was there. All peoples opinions are welcome including disagreements,

Not really written by me, Roy, more like edited, because I'll be using mostly other people's words. A hell of a lot of those words will actually be yours, mate! It's not a case of 'little input', believe me. And you're absolutely right, there'll be disagreement in there.

Originally Posted by Lasttye

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Of cause Family is important, My Mum and Dad was always there for me, I should have mentioned Family.

It was important for me too. My mum hated the whole skinhead thing and gave me a load of stick about it. My dad was largely silent about it, but then he never said anything much anyway. But they were always there when I was in any kind of trouble.

One thing has struck me. Those of us who were about my age - our parents had come through WW2. One thing that would have stopped me getting into right-wing politics (not that I was interested in right wing politics anyway) was knowing that my dad had spent five years fighting the Nazis. He was a corporal in the RAF, a radio operator, and for some of the war the RAF lent him to the Partisans in Yugoslavia; his mates were mixed Serbs, Croats, Slovenians but they were fighting against the Ustase, the Croatian Fascists who were so vicious that they even shocked the Germans. My dad had a Croat girlfriend who was murdered by them. I looked up to my dad a lot and respected him, and I would never have done anything to make him really ashamed of me.

I think a lot of my mates looked up to their dads because they were hard-working and had been through a lot.

Originally Posted by Lasttye

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I can see where you are coming from with the bigger dance halls, You may be able to slip in just a couple of you, But in a local club you could not do this, You would be seen as a outsider, and they would be on you, Asking where you from? who you support, if you did not come up with the right answers you would be in danger of a kicking, But if you walked in firm handed, You knew it was unlikely, but in saying that.. if you was out numbered a gang fight would happen, but a least you stood a chance, On your own you had no chance.
Which clubs are you referring to? It seems to me from your description - unless I have misinterpreted it - that normal socialising would grind to a standstill. People would be confined to say NW10 or NW6. I remember going to Watford, Uxbridge, Harrow, Greenford with no bother. Similarly, football in the late 60s did not have to involve violence unless you sought it out.

The area I was in, south of the Thames, seemed to be fairly loose. There weren't many places to go in S E London it seemed except the Savoy Rooms in Catford. The people who turned up there came from as far apart as Bromley (Kent), New Cross, and Woolwich, and there was very little trouble. Most of us hung around in Lewisham, spending a lot of time in the cafe of the bowling alley, but we weren't 'The Lewisham Mob' or anything like that. Lots of the blokes were Millwall supporters but there were Charlton supporters and Crystal Palace supporters too. That didn't seem to cause much friction. There was even one of our lot who supported West Brom and I suppose I supported Blackpool if anyone. It might have been different on the terraces if groups of opposing supporters had met there, but things seemed pretty quiet 'on the ground'. I used to wear my Blackpool scarf to Palace games, but I went with a group of Palace supporters and stood with them and never got into any major trouble even when the teams were playing each other. It was a bit weird al round.

Originally Posted by Man-of-Mystery

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I used to wear my Blackpool scarf to Palace games, but I went with a group of Palace supporters and stood with them and never got into any major trouble even when the teams were playing each other. It was a bit weird al round.

It may be a side issue but that is the way things should be IMO. You should be able to mix in the same places as away supporters without too much trouble. That is less likely nowadays, apart from lower league football. I have never worn a scarf but I have sat with opposition fans when I could not get a ticket elsewhere. Obviously you are on your best behaviour.