Mod to Suedehead

Originally Posted by harrysgame

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Always wondered what happened to Danny Arkins.

Someone I know quite well via the internet (a QPR supporter BTW) has met him once in fairly recent years as far as I know, in a pub after a Chelsea game. According to my 'source' he was pretty embarrassed about his past...

Originally Posted by Little Queenie

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Yes, but with text you can explain things. I meant if you looked at the photos in isolation. Hello, by-the-way!

Hello!

Originally Posted by Lasttye

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I think what it is, One Day you wake up and think, Hold on the fcuk what am i doing? Most of us was good lads, not Horrible C*nts, Danny was a good Lad, But he had a Rep that followed him around

IMHO that's another very, very important statement Roy. Perhaps if people would be willing to elaborate on that it could be used for the book in a truly meaningful way, if you see what I mean...

Originally Posted by Alex Roest

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IMHO that's another very, very important statement Roy. Perhaps if people would be willing to elaborate on that it could be used for the book in a truly meaningful way, if you see what I mean...

I already made a mental note of that, Alex, but I'm about 100 pages behind so far! Roy has come up with some observations that are spot on.

Originally Posted by Man-of-Mystery

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Firmly but gently he would, and to be honest he wouldn't be alone. There was a hiatus between the end of our day and the beginning of the Oi generation, and a considerable difference in mid-set, culture when they kicked off.

But surely there were some of the Old Guard, a few, a handful perhaps, more likely up North at least, who were still skinheads who forgot to grow out of it, and ended up in the two-tone era? Seeing the interview with Pauline Black (Selector), she very much states that she was around during the original era, as a teenager, then when she and the other two-tone bands started the revival, they tried to keep to at least to the spirit of the 60s. So there were connections between the first era, and the second, at least as far as the Ska scene went. With the punk influences though of course (which, would be very alienating to the original skins?).

What would be useful to know is, what were those connections? Lets take Front man of Bad Manners (who I'm seeing in a few weeks btw, might even get a chance to ask him but he'll be busy performing). He were around in the first generation and then helped lead up the revival in the two-tone era.

Another thing is, there were those who were part of the core element of the Skinhead period, and then there were those who joined in later, once the style became popular from several accounts of interviews I've seen with some of the Old Vanguard of the subculture (those who pretty much were there from the 1966 period to when it died out). Similar to how the Mods started out in the 1950s but by the time 1964 came around, there were a lot of teens getting into it, because the style/subculture had become famous and the originals were pretty much disgusted and moved on.

So this idea that there was a disconnect completely from one era, to the next, isn't quite 100% true either I suppose...I suspect the truth is something in-between...

I guess what I'm saying is, there's this period between the two generations, where glam rock takes over and god knows what else and it all goes pair shaped for a while, then come 1978, you start to have some folks like madness and other groups forming, picking up where their older siblings, left off...not unlike the younger siblings of the mods, turning to the skinhead style...

At most, the disconnect was what, 4 years in total (1972-3 to 1978 isn't that far distant). The two-tone era, started, officially, in 1978 as the first bands formed about then...and adopted, the style...then, punk influences, merged into it. You also had the Jam kick in not long after as well...so then there was the mod revival...and bingo, it kicks off....and lasts until about 1985! Then it simmers down into the diehards until the third generation revival kicks off at the start of the 1990s! Boom! In short, its a subculture that never really completely fizzled, it just...fades and grows again, every few years (though like chinese whispers, it got really warped and distorted over time).

Originally Posted by raging_rapid

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But surely there were some of the Old Guard, a few, a handful perhaps, more likely up North at least, who were still skinheads who forgot to grow out of it, and ended up in the two-tone era?

So this idea that there was a disconnect completely from one era, to the next, isn't quite 100% true either I suppose...I suspect the truth is something in-between...

My observations in London and Liverpool during the 1970s was that there was in fact a complete disconnect with nothing much remaining. I think that had it been otherwise then it would have been noted in Robert Elms' 'The Way We Wore'. No matter how you might want it to be so it's just wishful thinking on your part.

Originally Posted by Man-of-Mystery

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My observations in London and Liverpool during the 1970s was that there was in fact a complete disconnect with nothing much remaining. I think that had it been otherwise then it would have been noted in Robert Elms' 'The Way We Wore'. No matter how you might want it to be so it's just wishful thinking on your part.

Well what I'm saying is, Bad Manners guy, -was- an original skinhead...the two-tone bands, had some of the original skinheads, in their bands...that's what kicked off the two-tone era, the two-tone bands, who wanted to revive the old music and infuse it with a bit of oomph. I've actually met much of the two-tone bands in person, I've also met the Skatalites, Toots and the Maytals and a bunch of other bands from both eras. They seemed to indicate that at heart, it was the music, that drove the scene and those IN the music, were core to it. How much of that is true, is hard to say, given these bands weren't manufactured, like The Who but were around and kicking from one era to the next. However, as far as critical mass went, yep, i'd say it largely died out amongst most people, with perhaps a handful left.

I've also had talks with older mods and skins from Newcastle way, who also seem to indicate, that skinhead, didn't fully die out up there, but they did tend to get more into northern soul. They remember their older siblings were originals, before they joined into the two-tone era...but anyway. Not everyone remembers it the same I suppose...

Originally Posted by raging_rapid

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I've also had talks with older mods and skins from Newcastle way, who also seem to indicate, that skinhead, didn't fully die out up there, but they did tend to get more into northern soul.

Well I can relate partly to this. I do remember one of the 'junior' mods in Blackpool, by the name of Jon Le Saint, when I left there in 1968 to move to London. Some time later in the early 70s I saw a picture in a Northern Soul magazine of a DJ - he was wearing braces and a button-down shirt, and his name was... Jon Le Saint. That was after the 'official' skinhead era. BUT I have serious doubts about anyone dressing/behaving/dancing/buying records as identifiably skinhead throughout the the 70s. I never saw anyone, and if I had I would have noticed. A year is a long time in fashion, never mind the best part of a decade.

True!

Well, glad you Originals are back, or at least here to talk about all this stuff, because, for years, these sorts of questions, had been bugging me. I got some answers from some folks in the know, but there's been a lot of gaps to fill.

So back to style, I am thinking at some point of possibly getting some Loake Ashby Brogues, but...wondered what others here thought about them? Do they make the cut, don't they? It'll be a while before I dip in, so got plenty of time to work out what's on my "wish list"...

^^ the Loake ashby isnt technically a "proper" skinhead brogue, in that it isnt an American style longwing derby brogue, but rather a full brogue oxford. It's def a nice shoe, me and Roy talked a bit about this, he mentioned how he sees skinheads wearing this style of brogue at 'dos and feels they aren't getting it "right", if one is trying to be stylistically accurate. The Loake royal is stylistically more of a skinhead brogue, longwing derby (not an oxford) but the Ashby is probably a nicer shoe, taking out the skinhead context. The Royal is made from a cheaper correct grain leather, the Ashby appears to be full grain leather. for a nice full grain high quality longwing, Allen Edmonds "Macneil" brogue is a good one, slightly more expensive than the Loake Ashby but not too much more and if you want the cadillac of brogues, true cordovan leather ones by either Allen Edmonds or Alden are top of the shelf.

If your strides don't fit properly they don't hang right - braces or no braces!

David Rosen has co-written an article for Arena called 'Saturday Boys'. In the article, he had put together a family tree of great London shops. It was all about shopping on Saturday mornings then being on the terraces in the afternoon. South-west boys would go to the Ivy Shop then on to Chelsea; north-west London would go to the Squire Shop in Brewer Street or Quincy then on to Arsenal or Tottenham. You pretty much wore what you had just bought.

That whole period - 1969 to 1972 - just before the Budgie jacket came in and all of that, was absolutely a wonderful period, it came out of the Mod thing but it was its own thing. It actually went more back to Modernism than Mod, the whole Suedehead look. It was a fantastic look, The Suedehead look.

Taken from 'The Fashion of Football'

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Originally Posted by Get Smart

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^^ the Loake ashby isnt technically a "proper" skinhead brogue, in that it isnt an American style longwing derby brogue, but rather a full brogue oxford. It's def a nice shoe, me and Roy talked a bit about this, he mentioned how he sees skinheads wearing this style of brogue at 'dos and feels they aren't getting it "right", if one is trying to be stylistically accurate.

The Loake royal is stylistically more of a skinhead brogue, longwing derby (not an oxford)

but the Ashby is probably a nicer shoe, taking out the skinhead context. The Royal is made from a cheaper correct grain leather, the Ashby appears to be full grain leather.

for a nice full grain high quality longwing, Allen Edmonds "Macneil" brogue is a good one, slightly more expensive than the Loake Ashby but not too much more

and if you want the cadillac of brogues, true cordovan leather ones by either Allen Edmonds or Alden are top of the shelf.

Thanks Get Smart! I've been looking at all these various brogues and thought about the Royal and MacNeil too. Funny that the things you mention were exactly what was playing on my mind. The MacNeil looks the part. It'll be a tough decision when it comes time (really, it'll be down to budget me thinks once I've got a short list of brogues that 'cut it'). I think i'll rule out the Asbhy as its not too much more for the Allen Edmonds brogue. I've currently got a nice pair of Doc. Martin brogues which, whilst aren't 'technically correct', fill a gap until I get a nicer shoe. I used to have a pair of Loake Royal brogues a few years back, but I wore them out and then threw them out (I should of just got them repaired, oh well).

Very useful information though, thank you!

Steptoe and Son (1970)

(Just the first 30 secs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PQq8...yer_detailpage