P Johnson MTM

I thought you were calling him a Moran as some kind of obscure Melbourne underbelly reference. For mine, moran is a worse payout than moron!

Originally Posted by TheWraith

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Agree with the above. No doubt your future items will improve. That should be the case with all tailors. However, keep in mind the relationship you're building is with the person measuring you/selling you the item/s. The actual tailors are the people making your suits/jackets/trousers etc., and they're in Holland. That's the difference between MTM (in this case offshore MTM) and bespoke. With the latter, you're building a relationship with the cutter and often the person actually putting your suit together. That's why I personally prefer bespoke, but naturally the cost of such can be a downside for many. I, too, have gone MTM on occasions, and have done so again recently (with a tailor in the UK and the USA). But in doing so, I'm quite aware I'm building a relationship with the shopfront people, not the actual tailors cutting and/or making my suits.

I don't know that you always get to deal directly with the cutter when dealing with a bespoke operation. I have no idea who cut my WW Chan pattern, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Patrick (the person who I dealt with directly). I think the benefit of bespoke is more so in the multiple fittings available (to iron out details such as buttoning stance, jacket length, the fit of the shoulders, the fit of the collar), and the endless customisation available.

I think this applies even with the high-end operations. Mariano Rubinacci certainly doesn't personally cut mafoofan or whnay's coats, but he certainly is the person overseeing the ordering and fitting process. I do take your point though, as it would be easier for the fitter to communicate with the cutter when they work under the same roof.

But in doing so, I'm quite aware I'm building a relationship with the shopfront people, not the actual tailors cutting and/or making my suits.f.

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That's very true. However, as with many things, sadly, we have to choose the level of cost and service we're happy with - as you mention. Most on these fora are happy to pay more for something beyond OTR, but fewer are able (or willing) to pay for true bespoke.

P. Johnson, like all MTM operations, is limited in what they're able to customize, but while I can't talk to the cutter, a person like Tom brings more than just a measuring tape. Their knowledge of cut, fabric, colour and proportion are valuable even if they don't work in the same building as the cutter.

Originally Posted by meister

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Congrats and have a good marriage! I have just come up to 25 years.
People get less time for murder or terrorism.

Originally Posted by stateless

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That's the biggest problem I see with the suit - too much with the wait suppression.



Thanks! And congrats on your 25 years. Any tips?

Meet the right woman.

Originally Posted by cchen

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if you're gonna call someone a moron better spell it correctly

Exactly. I can't take anyone seriously who can't even spell the most basic of words.

Originally Posted by quar

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I don't know that you always get to deal directly with the cutter when dealing with a bespoke operation. I have no idea who cut my WW Chan pattern, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Patrick (the person who I dealt with directly). I think the benefit of bespoke is more so in the multiple fittings available (to iron out details such as buttoning stance, jacket length, the fit of the shoulders, the fit of the collar), and the endless customisation available. I think this applies even with the high-end operations. Mariano Rubinacci certainly doesn't personally cut mafoofan or whnay's coats, but he certainly is the person overseeing the ordering and fitting process. I do take your point though, as it would be easier for the fitter to communicate with the cutter when they work under the same roof.
There's nothing wrong with high-end MTM. I've used such services before, and I no doubt will again. However, I've also gone full bespoke, and I can tell you, if you can afford it, it's a whole new experience, and those who haven't experienced it can't really comment on the differences between the two. And yes, there are some bespoke outfits where you don't deal directly with the cutter (especially if you're utilising their travelling tailor service), but you'll find with most you do. And there are huge benefits to that, believe me. But naturally, the expense of such is prohibitive for many, and I well understand that.

Originally Posted by stateless

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That's very true. However, as with many things, sadly, we have to choose the level of cost and service we're happy with - as you mention. Most on these fora are happy to pay more for something beyond OTR, but fewer are able (or willing) to pay for true bespoke. P. Johnson, like all MTM operations, is limited in what they're able to customize, but while I can't talk to the cutter, a person like Tom brings more than just a measuring tape. Their knowledge of cut, fabric, colour and proportion are valuable even if they don't work in the same building as the cutter.
As I said last week and above, I realise full bespoke is cost prohibitive for many here. A high-end MTM outfit is a good alternative, I quite agree. Such places depend on good communication between the person measuring/servicing you and the cutter/suit maker, and that's sometimes not easy, especially when you're dealing across countries/cultures. P Johnson seems to be doing a good job, though, so it's all good.

Originally Posted by TheWraith

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However, I've also gone full bespoke, and I can tell you, if you can afford it, it's a whole new experience, and those who haven't experienced it can't really comment on the differences between the two. And yes, there are some bespoke outfits where you don't deal directly with the cutter (especially if you're utilising their travelling tailor service), but you'll find with most you do. And there are huge benefits to that, believe me. But naturally, the expense of such is prohibitive for many, and I well understand that.

Did you even read what I said? I said there are definite benefits to bespoke. I think that the benefits relate to multiple fittings and customisation (lapel width, gorge, etc.). I think that you over-estimate the benefit of having direct communication with the cutter. These comments are based upon my personal experience, so I'm not sure why you are insinuating that I don't have valid point of view.

Yes I read what you said, and I responded to what you said. I never said your view isn't valid, but that doesn't mean I agree with you. The benefits of full bespoke are more than just relating to multiple fittings and customisation (I've always gotten the same amount of customisation on my MTM suits as I have on my bespoke commissions). Communicating with your cutter is of huge importance (and many bespoke tailors will readily agree with me on that), and you'd only appreciate that if you've properly experienced that level of bespoke. That's my opinion, and it's as valid as yours. But like I said, that level of bespoke is cost prohibitive for many, and I well understand that. A high-end MTM operation is a good alternative, and one I've used several times myself.

Originally Posted by TheWraith

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There's nothing wrong with high-end MTM. I've used such services before, and I no doubt will again. However, I've also gone full bespoke, and I can tell you, if you can afford it, it's a whole new experience, and those who haven't experienced it can't really comment on the differences between the two.

What about the results though? It's all very well to jabber on about "the experience".......

From what I've seen, I'd rather a top quality MTM suit over some of the "bespoke" sacks I've seen on the forum - 7 days of the week and twice on Sunday.

I think good MTM is preferable to poor bespoke.

Originally Posted by TheWraith

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Yes I read what you said, and I responded to what you said. I never said your view isn't valid, but that doesn't mean I agree with you. The benefits of full bespoke are more than just relating to multiple fittings and customisation (I've always gotten the same amount of customisation on my MTM suits as I have on my bespoke commissions). Communicating with your cutter is of huge importance (and many bespoke tailors will readily agree with me on that), and you'd only appreciate that if you've properly experienced that level of bespoke. That's my opinion, and it's as valid as yours. But like I said, that level of bespoke is cost prohibitive for many, and I well understand that. A high-end MTM operation is a good alternative, and one I've used several times myself.
Which high end bespoke makers have you visited recently to validate your comment about the greater value of "that level of bespoke" compared to a lower level of bespoke or MTM?

I'm interested as I would like to go to one of these tailors to test your theory and see what I'm missing out on.

Originally Posted by TheWraith

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There's nothing wrong with high-end MTM. I've used such services before, and I no doubt will again. However, I've also gone full bespoke, and I can tell you, if you can afford it, it's a whole new experience, and those who haven't experienced it can't really comment on the differences between the two. And yes, there are some bespoke outfits where you don't deal directly with the cutter (especially if you're utilising their travelling tailor service), but you'll find with most you do. And there are huge benefits to that, believe me. But naturally, the expense of such is prohibitive for many, and I well understand that.

I've done both bespoke and MTM, and now swear to MTM. I've been more happy with my current MTM-supplier then with the full bespoke experience i've had.

That's good. I've had excellent results from my current MTM tailor as well, Tom Wharton at Barrington Ayre. A fine man offering a fine service. Cost effective, too. But it isn't bespoke, it isn't as good as bespoke, nor would I ever confuse it with such. (Note: If you live in England, Barrington Ayre does offer full bespoke--half or full canvassed whichever you decide). This reminds me of a couple posts of Tom Mahon's over on English Cut some years back. I think he states it nicely there: http://www.englishcut.com/2005/01/27...fford-bespoke/ http://www.englishcut.com/2005/01/06/what-is-bespoke/ For those who can afford full bespoke...go for it. For those who can't, then a high-end MTM operation (like P Johnson) is a good alternative.

^^So who do you use and recommend for bespoke? Can you let us in on the secret?

Assume I have the means.

Originally Posted by Prince of Paisley

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^^So who do you use and recommend for bespoke? Can you let us in on the secret?

Assume I have the means.

In Sydney, for bespoke, I would recommend John Cutler (very expensive), Adamo Marrone, Zink & Sons or Victor Alacqua. I've heard good things about Bijan and Sam DiSano, too, though the latter you may have to cajole a bit (and supply your own horn buttons, according to Sator).