white tie with DJ

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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^Yes, full-fig white tie ensembles are used sometimes as wedding attire. One notable case would be Scott Peterson of Scott & Laci infamy. He wore full evening attire to his wedding with the hapless Laci. In the published photo in the tabloids, it appeared to be broad daylight. In the debate between ancient precedent vs. current usage, where, then, does the despised notch-lapel DJ/tuxedo fit? It has both the sanction of precedent, notch lapel DJs having been worn in the pre-WWI era, and no one can deny their current popularity. I mean, Manton, how can you state that the practice of wearing white ties with a dinner jacket has been rendered inappropriate by current practice, yet inveigh, as you do, against the notch lapel, which is supported both by precedent and most emphatically in current practice. That said, I personally would never acquire a notch-lapel DJ--in the unlikely event I should ever have occasion to wear a DJ--but I cannot in confidence tell somebody that it is "bad form" or sartorially incorrect.
Phew! That little effort seems to have sold one more book on amazon.com. The truth is that, whatever I say, here or in print, it will never meet with much US approval (even acknowledgement of its exisence, pace Will), because you have your own Holy Grails: the Flusser books (backed-up and reinforced by the likes of schmozers such as Cromps and his 'Permanent Style' WETFTI) and Manton's (of course) - and what marketing manager would dream of letting the guy in from the Other Firm? Sad but true. Shut him out and shut him up. Side-line him. Thank whatever gods may be that I am able to say (as I do), that I have done with flabby handshakes and false smiles; unfelt laughs, at unfunny jokes; in company that I'd rather avoid, at corporate functions, frequented by eager geeks, gawks and spooks in ill-fitting, shiny suits. These days; most days, I am virtually naked and all the better for it. White tie; black tie - all gorn the way of all flesh for me: for me now the scent and sound of the crashing South Atlantic Ocean and a bloody great papaya, sprinkled with fresh ginger, for breakie! 'Ta' (a ghastly term) and 'Cheers' (an even ghastlier), Guys!

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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I mean, Manton, how can you state that the practice of wearing white ties with a dinner jacket has been rendered inappropriate by current practice, yet inveigh, as you do, against the notch lapel, which is supported both by precedent and most emphatically in current practice.

Because it does not follow that because something was correct at one time, therefore it must be correct for all time. White tie with DJ is at least 100 years passe.

I don't believe in all this vaunted support for the notch DJ. All we have, it seems to me, are some American dry goods catalogues and people like Prince Phillip, who is widely regarded as ... well, as kind of an embarassment to England. It's a fact that SR, the upper orders, and the cadre of the stylish have, since the '20s, worn black tie only as proscribed in the ways you say I am wrong for catalogueing.

As for current practice, yeah, RTW has ensured that it will be ubiquitous until the DJ finally dies. I guess that makes it correct in that it's much less of a faux pas than it was say 40 or 50 years ago. It's probably not a faux pas at all any more in the strict sense. But anyone who cares about style would still shun it--or at a minimum they would want to know that they stylish have to a man all shunned it.

I feel like it's 2004 all over again, so let me repeat for the 10,000th time, wear whatever you want. But let's be honest with ourselves and not try to pretend that the notch DJ was all over Belgravia and the Upper East Side in the mid 20th century.

Originally Posted by Manton

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Because it does not follow that because something was correct at one time, therefore it must be correct for all time. White tie with DJ is at least 100 years passe. I don't believe in all this vaunted support for the notch DJ. All we have, it seems to me, are some American dry goods catalogues and people like Prince Phillip, who is widely regarded as ... well, as kind of an embarassment to England. It's a fact that SR, the upper orders, and the cadre of the stylish have, since the '20s, worn black tie only as proscribed in the ways you say I am wrong for catalogueing. As for current practice, yeah, RTW has ensured that it will be ubiquitous until the DJ finally dies. I guess that makes it correct in that it's much less of a faux pas than it was say 40 or 50 years ago. It's probably not a faux pas at all any more in the strict sense. But anyone who cares about style would still shun it--or at a minimum they would want to know that they stylish have to a man all shunned it. I feel like it's 2004 all over again, so let me repeat for the 10,000th time, wear whatever you want. But let's be honest with ourselves and not try to pretend that the notch DJ was all over Belgravia and the Upper East Side in the mid 20th century.
The problem with describing what is now 'correct' is that hardly anybody out there knows or cares and it is an exercise in counting angels on pinheads. The step lapel DJ-tux has been a fairly rare item (a 'notch' is, strictly, speaking any lapel '****'); although it seems to be gaining ground. It was illustrated in the early 20th Century as an option. its re-emergence is the evolution which we sometimes hear about. The Prince Philip, The Duke of Edinburgh is, in many Briton's eyes a national treasure. He is that rare thing: a man who speaks out and a man who has unfaillingly given his life to supporting The Queen. What have you got? Stuttering, self-aggrandizing fools like George W Bush. Well, as George W might well say: stufflicate you.

Originally Posted by clubman

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The Prince Philip, The Duke of Edinburgh is, in many Briton's eyes a national treasure. He is that rare thing: a man who speaks out and a man who has unfaillingly given his life to supporting The Queen. What have you got? Stuttering, self-aggrandizing fools like George W Bush. Well, stufflicate you.

yeah, great.

I'd think the ease of finding a white satin bow-tie gives a little credit to the idea that black bowtie love isn't so monolithic.

Then again, "black tie" in a white tie does sound contradictory.

Originally Posted by Manton

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yeah, great.
That's raht, bahy! I think that there is a touch of envy there because most Americans go absolutely nuts for the royal family and virtually adopted the Little Dook as a kind of surrogate sovereign.

Originally Posted by pvrhye

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I'd think the ease of finding a white satin bow-tie gives a little credit to the idea that black bowtie love isn't so monolithic.

Then again, "black tie" in a white tie does sound contradictory.

'Black tie' is just another way of saying 'dinner jacket'. But the agonizing over this is beyond belief! As I say, most people couldn't give a rat's backside.

Originally Posted by gdl203

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I'm actually going to wear my tux with a white bow and white waistcoat next week

From "The Way We Were" at the 1:00 mark. Can't be sure about the waistcoat but it looks like there's a white one in there.
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Originally Posted by clubman

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That's raht, bahy! I think that there is a touch of envy there because most Americans go absolutely nuts for the royal family and virtually adopted the Little Dook as a kind of surrogate sovereign.

yeah, that's me

Originally Posted by Manton

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yeah, that's me

Oh, I thought that you were he of the cascading strings!

Originally Posted by clubman

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Oh, I thought that you were he of the cascading strings!

I really have no idea what you are talking about at this point. You seem to have done interesting research and have interesting things to say but if you just want to pick fights, you're going to have to fight with someone else. I am combative -- too much so -- but not interested this time.

Originally Posted by Manton

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I really have no idea what you are talking about at this point. You seem to have done interesting research and have interesting things to say but if you just want to pick fights, you're going to have to fight with someone else. I am combative -- too much so -- but not interested this time.

If you have no idea what I am talking about, how on earth can you suggest that I am picking a fight?

PAX.

Originally Posted by clubman

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If you have no idea what I am talking about, how on earth can you suggest that I am picking a fight?

PAX.

I could cite chapter and verse, is that really necessary? Anyway, if you aren't, great.

Originally Posted by Manton

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I could cite chapter and verse, is that really necessary? Anyway, if you aren't, great.

Let's be friends instead.

When I saw William Powell in The Thin Man, I noticed that he wore a white waistcoat with his dinner jacket. His tie was black. It looked dapper and I approved. Black waistcoats with black tie are too funereal for my taste: better to wear a double-breasted DJ, or (gasp) a cummerbund, or just keep the single-breasted DJ buttoned if all else fails. Or even do as Powell did and wear a white waistcoat.

As for the white/black tie with DJ problem: in the 21st century, it seems questionable to me to declare it 'incorrect' to wear a white bow with DJ. If it was accepted for a good half-century before the 1920s, it seems nothing more than a matter of declaring your historical allegiances. One man has Edwardian taste, the next man has mid-century taste. The next man (nearly everyone, in fact) has no idea about any of this, and looks the worse for it. By all means chide Obama for wearing a white tie only out of ignorance (and for not covering his waist), but don't chide the next man who makes an informed choice.