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pebblegrain

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There are many very nice equivalents to the Dover style, but purely aesthetically, they all come up slightly short. This is purely my opinion ON APPEARANCE so if some f*ckhead responds with something like "and where are your facts to back this up", go f*ck yourself.
plain.gif
I wasn't a Dover-Lover at first, (I never understood why someone would buy a split toe over an Asquith, Inverness, or Shannon) but as I have seen many other split-toes or norwegers come and go on this forum, it has grown on me. It's the best of this style. Lets look at these one at a time: The Vass is an interesting, quaint, and I'm sure historically accurate style, but the seam of the apron is too far down close to the sole. The balance is off.
Originally Posted by banis
172504--40523267-m750x740-u9c86b.jpg
Vass Norweger on the P2 last in cordovan.

The Carminas have a much better balance and overall shape, but still not perfect. The toe is a bit too elongated, and ventures into those weird Santoni/Bettanin territory. And the stitching looks inferior
Originally Posted by NORE
I think the last/color the guys at the Armoury picked for these can sway those like myself that were on the fence re nst blutchers
The Ecton's balance is waay off, 3 eyelets vs 5? And the front vamp is waaay too long (compensating for the eyelets). Dover all the way.
Originally Posted by woolymammoth
Dover (606) / Ecton (888)...
dover-ecton.jpg

This reminds me, a good poor-mans Dover is the Alden NST. If I were on a budget and had to have this style I would choose between the Carmina and the Alden.
 

fritzl

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Originally Posted by edmorel
here are my RLPL CARTER/EG Ecton's


a good one. the lack of the heel counter makes the decisive difference for me...
 

fritzl

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Originally Posted by edmorel
...but in the realm of split toe shoes I think the Dover is a must have.

not at all.
 

pebblegrain

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Originally Posted by fritzl
a good one. the lack of the heel counter makes the decisive difference for me...

I presume you mean you like the Ecton better than Dover?

My opinion, the lack of heel counter when the front is so busy throws the balance all off.
 

fritzl

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...
 

fritzl

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Originally Posted by Pliny
Having just browsed some Austrian, Hungarian and German Norwegers, I take back the 'manly' comment: the Dover looks positively effeminate next to Haferl, Attila, Dinks etc versions. 'Alpha as f-@$' - but I wouldn't wear any of them - or the Vass I love - with a suit
smile.gif



haven't really considered this.

actually i have three norweger, where the apron is machine stitched, which doesn't make them compareable. two are scotchgrain and one is sort of nubuk, so they are reserved for casual settings.
 

fritzl

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Originally Posted by pebblegrain
1. I presume you mean you like the Ecton better than Dover? 2. My opinion, the lack of heel counter when the front is so busy throws the balance all off.
1. correct, whilst i dislike most three eyelet shoes. that tells you all. 2. i share the opposite opinion. horses for courses. btw, the dover is one of the worst balanced shoes for me.
 

NORE

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Originally Posted by pebblegrain

The Carminas have a much better balance and overall shape, but still not perfect. The toe is a bit too elongated, and ventures into those weird Santoni/Bettanin territory. And the stitching looks inferior


Remember, my feet are big so the perception of these vs some of the others that were posted in ~size 8 will be off by a bit.
 

Burton

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Originally Posted by fritzl
1. correct, whilst i dislike most three eyelet shoes. that tells you all.

2. i share the opposite opinion. horses for courses. btw, the dover is one of the worst balanced shoes for me.



Horses for courses--I agree. I like the Dover better than all the others.

That Carmina is a nice looking shoe but not in the same category as any of the others in terms of handwork. The toe looks machine done. The skin stitching of the Dover and the Hove is just beautiful.

To me the Vass and Ludwig Reiter are different shoes and complimentary to the Dover--would want them both.
 

NORE

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And there goes SF groupthink re handwork. What makes an apron stitched by hand superior to a machine stitched one??

I am an EG enthusiast and having went the Carmina route I am thoroughly pleased. I don't think I could have reached the same conclusion with the Hove, Ecton or Dover.
 

pebblegrain

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Originally Posted by NORE
And there goes SF groupthink re handwork. What makes an apron stitched by hand superior to a machine stitched one??

I am an EG enthusiast and having went the Carmina route I am thoroughly pleased. I don't think I could have reached the same conclusion with the Hove, Ecton or Dover.


I don't think it's superior. In terms of strength, no shoe I have ever owned has ever busted a seam, except for some Sauconys.

However, I think the seam on the Dover looks better. If there was a machine way to do that and it saved $300, I would buy the machine one.

[armchair artisan mode on] There are different ways for attaching two pieces of leather edge-to-edge:

  • one layer over the other, and stitch (most seams are done this way): looks clean but the surface is not even
  • put some kind of joining leather on top of it, like piping: looks really ugly, and surface is not even
  • join the bottom surfaces together, stitch, and pull flat (like the Vass above or moccasins): looks okay, surface is not even
  • join the tops together, and pull flat (like on the toe tip of the Carminas): looks okay, can clearly see the stitching underneath, surface is even
  • whatever it is that the Dovers are doing: looks almost flat but not perfectly so, can't see stitching, looks fawking awesome
 

JohnnyCrockett

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Originally Posted by pebblegrain
There are many very nice equivalents to the Dover style, but purely aesthetically, they all come up slightly short. This is purely my opinion ON APPEARANCE so if some f*ckhead responds with something like "and where are your facts to back this up", go f*ck yourself.
plain.gif


I wasn't a Dover-Lover at first, (I never understood why someone would buy a split toe over an Asquith, Inverness, or Shannon) but as I have seen many other split-toes or norwegers come and go on this forum, it has grown on me. It's the best of this style.

Lets look at these one at a time:
The Vass is an interesting, quaint, and I'm sure historically accurate style, but the seam of the apron is too far down close to the sole. The balance is off.


The Carminas have a much better balance and overall shape, but still not perfect. The toe is a bit too elongated, and ventures into those weird Santoni/Bettanin territory. And the stitching looks inferior



The Ecton's balance is waay off, 3 eyelets vs 5? And the front vamp is waaay too long (compensating for the eyelets). Dover all the way.


This reminds me, a good poor-mans Dover is the Alden NST. If I were on a budget and had to have this style I would choose between the Carmina and the Alden.



I agree with some of this.


The Vass is a whole different animal than the Alden NST, Dover, and Carmina, I'd say. It is the Austro-Hungarian relative but not the same shoe. While the others could be worn maybe even with a suit, I'd have trouble wearing that Vass with anything other than jeans, moleskins, or corduroys.


Dover definitely does it best. The Ecton's proportions also look WAY off to me. I'm not really a fan.
Keep in mind the the Dover looks very different on different lasts. On the 82 it looks more like the Carmina. On the 202 or 505 (higher toe box), it looks more casual (and better, I think). I'm not a fan of even slightly squared toes, so I'm not a fan of the 606 but find it passable. Really dislike the 888.

For the "poor man's Dover", the better choice than the Alden NST is probably the C&J for BB Peal split toe - either the more casually-styled one in brown pebble grain with double leather or Dainite soles or the more formal one with single leather soles, smooth calf leather, and less stitching on the sides of the shoe (not sure how to describe it).

Pebble:
http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...=&sectionsize=


Smooth:
http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...=&sectionsize=
 

Burton

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Originally Posted by JohnnyCrockett
I agree with some of this.


The Vass is a whole different animal than the Alden NST, Dover, and Carmina, I'd say. It is the Austro-Hungarian relative but not the same shoe. While the others could be worn maybe even with a suit, I'd have trouble wearing that Vass with anything other than jeans, moleskins, or corduroys.


Dover definitely does it best. The Ecton's proportions also look WAY off to me. I'm not really a fan.
Keep in mind the the Dover looks very different on different lasts. On the 82 it looks more like the Carmina. On the 202 or 505 (higher toe box), it looks more casual (and better, I think). I'm not a fan of even slightly squared toes, so I'm not a fan of the 606 but find it passable. Really dislike the 888.

For the "poor man's Dover", the better choice than the Alden NST is probably the C&J for BB Peal split toe - either the more casually-styled one in brown pebble grain with double leather or Dainite soles or the more formal one with single leather soles, smooth calf leather, and less stitching on the sides of the shoe (not sure how to describe it).

Pebble:
http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...=&sectionsize=


Smooth:
http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatP...=&sectionsize=


To me the Alden is a different shoe than either the Carmina or the BB C&J version. The Alden has a different type of skin stitching:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3283/...fff78c02a9.jpg

Unlike either the EG or the G+G this seam is "bubble" stitched. The stitching is purely decorative. The Carmina and the BB C&J are real seams. I am not dissing any of them. I just think the EG Dover and the LR versions are the best in their class.
 

edmorel

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I think something that happens to us here, and I do it all the time, as that we are always looking to what is the best relative to something else rather than just appreciating each item for what it brings to the table. I happen to like split toe shoes, I happen to like the English/German/American variations and I wear each of them for different occasions:


photo-16.jpg
 

fritzl

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Originally Posted by edmorel
...

what are the two middle pairs? the dark ones look good.
 

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