conservative business dress WAYWRN: An Experiment

Couple of things: (1) let's stick to critique and commentary of what's being posted in this thread. There's a reason this thread exists on its own. (2) I think that, relatively speaking, there's a lot more criticism and real feedback given here than we're used to on SF, so I don't think it's quite fair to say there isn't. MoK in particular does get a ton of feedback.

TITFDYB

Originally Posted by quar

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<snip>MOK's clothing to me, looks like the same stuff you can buy in any Department Store here in Australia. It just looks cheap, flashy (skinny lapels, one-button, short jacket) and in poor-taste to me.<snip>
It's okay that you don't post your own fits, and it's also okay that you don't like MOK's steeze. Your opinions might be more helpful to him, however, if you were to offer them in response to specific fits when he posts them. For instance, today's fit doesn't seem to commit any of the three specific sins you've mentioned above. (And when did a one-button jacket come to represent cheap flashiness? Huntsman seems to do alright with it...) Of course, you're free to indulge in the drive-bys if that's more to your liking.

Originally Posted by quar

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<snip>As a matter of interest, I received 2 PM's in the last 15 minutes from people who support my earlier post.<snip>
And this proves what?

Congrats, Lufty. Looking forward to seeing you on my TV.

I thought Milian ran the people's court, so no lawyers?

Originally Posted by quar

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Yes. I know that he does get most of his stuff from a NY Tailor, his name is Frank "Something" from memory. He was a bad example. I agree that his clothing fits him well. The style of the clothing (shoulders and chest) isn't in line with what I like, which is not something I can fault him on. It's not something I can put my finger on, but his clothing (to me) lacks the 'high-end' look that some of the other members here achieve (oldog, Manton, gdl203, edmorel, NOBD, whnay). I am neither smart enough or know enough about clothing to justify that last comment, but that is just an observation from me. If I saw MOK or NYR walking down the street, I doubt I would notice their clothing from the other stuff I see on a typical Australian city-street. MOK's clothing to me, looks like the same stuff you can buy in any Department Store here in Australia. It just looks cheap, flashy (skinny lapels, one-button, short jacket) and in poor-taste to me.

As a matter of interest, I received 2 PM's in the last 15 minutes from people who support my earlier post. It has reinforced the idea in my mind that some SF'ers continue to make poor stylistic options (from the SF Groupthink POV) just because it is too awkward to post negative comments in threads such as these. I know I am going to get ragged on for this, but I just don't care at this point. Some things here are just plain ugly in my opinion, such as MOK's lilac contrast-collared shirt. To me, that is absolutely in bad taste, regardless of whether it's conservative business dress or not in the UK, and I'm sure most here would agree - but no-one actually chimes in to give him feedback about it.

Quar - I agree with some of what you said. You were correct to distance yourself from your own comments on NYR, 95% of the time I think he is spot on. Your comments on MoK however I whole heartedly agree with.

MoK, lets concentrate on your last post - In my opinion the lighter weight cloth of this suit hangs very badly on you, even if it is not cheap I'm afraid it looks it. The colour does not flatter you. The Chest pocket seems to be too low and the poofed hankie brings this low placement to attention. the tie may be from liberty but is aint pretty. At all. And combined with the shirt it makes the whole thing just too monotone. The shoes. Not my cup of tea at all. Sorry but they are yuck.

There is most definitely a difference between conservative business dress depending on which country you live in - I assume in the States it probably differs from city to city. In essence however I believe true conservative business dress should be transferable. One should be able to go to a meeting in Beijing, lunch in London and dinner in NYC wearing the same clothes; no-one should bat an eye-lid in these meetings, in transit, in the taxis or walking down the pavement (side-walk).

I believe Quar is trying to insinuate that 3-4 business suits made from traditional clothes of a decent weight with a sensible cut; complimented with 10 sensible shirts etc etc - will equip you much better for the conservative business dress environment than the majority of stuff we see on WAYWRN which does, and I have no shred of a doubt when I say this, influence many, many people on this site.

Originally Posted by sugarbutch

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It's okay that you don't post your own fits, and it's also okay that you don't like MOK's steeze. Your opinions might be more helpful to him, however, if you were to offer them in response to specific fits when he posts them. For instance, today's fit doesn't seem to commit any of the three specific sins you've mentioned above. (And when did a one-button jacket come to represent cheap flashiness? Huntsman seems to do alright with it...)

Of course, you're free to indulge in the drive-bys if that's more to your liking.



And this proves what?

Drive-bys. That did make me smile. I'll take on your advice and try and be more politically correct next time I dish out some feedback. What those PM's prove, is that people hold back negative comments because it's more trouble than it's worth. Those PM's were from regular contributors to this thread.

There is nothing inherently flashy or cheap about a one-button jacket. But when you add hacking pockets and slim lapels to the mix, it heads down-hill very quickly. YMMV. There is no point arguing anymore, in an admittedly ungentlemanly like fashion, I called out MOK on what I consider consistently poor-taste, people have jumped to defend him or attack me for the way in which I went about it, and no-one is better off for it. Case closed.

Originally Posted by Phat Guido

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Cracking tie.

Originally Posted by Phat Guido

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Representing Raw (Silk) Thursday

*Corporate entertainment is busting me!​

You know you're always good but you totally killed the colors here. In a good way.

Originally Posted by Manton

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Yeah, but it's a mix of that plus SF groupthink.

I am interested to read/see more about what flies and what does not in other environments. Your discussions on English shoe culture I find very useful.

However, things that I think are simply ugly and/or defy SF groupthink (I strive to make these categories overlap as much as possible) I am not so interested in.

conservative business dress is not as simple as people think. It's not just a matter of what's acceptable in a given mileau. It's also a matter of what looks to good to us iGents. "Internationally classic" might capture it. Or, another acronym might be TITFDYB (Tone it the *&^% down you bastards!).

Thank you.

From the reaction I got I think a tie emblasoned with Mickey Mouse would go down better than a classic english print

I think I'm always going to be slightly outside of SF groupthink, purely because of my nationality and background. I know there are other occasional posters on MC from the UK, but I think Holdfast is probably the only other frequent poster in the WAYWRN threads. I don't think I'll ever reach the point where tassell loafters or pebble-grain shoes look right with a suit any more than you will find bolder colours or patterns acceptable. Coloured OCBD's with suits just looks wrong, and when button downs are unbuttoned... I think we're clearly separated by more than a common language... There are many aspects of SF groupthink I find strange, some of which occur in the main WAYWRN thread, and some in other threads (the wearing of chunky metal banded sports/divers watches with a suit is a bugbear of mine, but I try not too offend by commenting on it too often ).

I've yet to visit the US (or Canada for that matter), and I suspect many SF members have never spent anytime over here. I do wonder what some of them would make of the rows of ties and shirting that are available if they wandered down Jermyn Street.

I have tried to follow the very limited advice given - experimenting with sticking to solids for example (Monday's was a more successful attempt than the previous one, I think, but I still don't know whether the suiting is considered too pale for this thread's view of conservative business dress).

Anyway I have no wish to dress like an American, I shall try and limit my fit posts to where my English sensibilities are unlikely have the impact of Janet Jackson at the Superbowl (whatever one of those is )

Keep doing what you're doing, MoK. You're one of the most interesting posters on this forum, IMO. You have a reach from SW&amp;D to UCBD (if you really wanted to do the latter), you're always trying to improve yourself, and always have a friendly word and good advice (and nicely packed, but to-the-point critique) for other posters.

Originally Posted by quar

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MOK:Where do you get your suiting from? The fabrics and features (hacking pockets, etc.) screams of department-store mass production to me. This might sound like a really douche-bag thing to say, but I rarely find that your clothing is in good-taste. That coming from a guy who never posts himself is pretty rich, I know. I think that a lot of members here have so many clothes (such as NYR), and I wonder why that don't go for less items, of better quality. I would rather have 5 suits from someone like NSM or Chan, then 15 suits from a maker who charges the 1/3rd of the price, and produces a less attractive style of garment. I don't know, I feel that SF'ers often go for quantity over quality.

Fabrics from last three fits in reverse order:



None of the suits are from a department store, although I'm not ashamed to say I do have a couple of suits from M&S's more expensive lines. The brown suit was my first attempt at MTM, I wanted a strong shouldered cut with pronounced drape - a fairly classic English style, it's far from completely successful in that the shoulder extension is slightly overdone, and significant weightloss hasn't helped. The other two suits are both unaltered (there are no alterations tailors in my part of the world, beyond dry cleaners) RTW. They're neither the cheapest nor the dearest RTW (half, rather than fully canvased, horn buttons but the cuff buttons aren't functional). The fabric is deliberately lightweight as they were bought as summer suits (my commute involves a two mile walk each way and a short journey on a packed train - anything too heavy is uncomfortable in the Summer (particularly when my admin assistants keep turning the office air-conditioning off because they're cold in their sleeveless dresses...).

Once I've got down to a weight I'm happy with and can maintain then I might look at the expense of going bespoke and a few trips up to London. I think it would involve an established tailor rather than someone like Chan , because of the travel, and someone who could cut reasonably strong shoulders that take account of the fact that one of them is lower and slightly twisted due to the titanium plate holding it together.

I've been to the UK many, many times and been to the Liberty flagship store in London. I see the women's scarves occasionally but I can't recall ever seeing the men's ties outsite the store.