Saville Row Suit

1. Can you tell us more about Michael's background?
He trained at Paul Smith Bespoke and with Joe & Roy from Chittleborough and Morgan

2. Who do the tailors in the UK and overseas work too. John, Micheal or you?
All staff are employed by us... Is that what you mean


3. Are the UK tailors you use just used for finishing and the overseas operation for the making?
No we have coatmakers here and overseas


4. What happens when I leave your shop with my bespoke suit? What after care do you recommend and where can I best achieve this

Aftercare is a long answer dependent on the garment/use etc etcbut in short
We have an agreement with Jeeves all customers with our items get a discount using their services or we offer sponge and press service ourselves

5. Do you recommend all your bespoke client return after 3 months to see how the suit is wearing? Graham Browne do this

Without question


Regarding charges for ours and Johns suits - the difference comes in several areas.. We buy our cloth far cheaper than most as we make a large amount of suits and also we buy cloth on behalf of the other tailors we make for. John has been in the business for decades and has his set pricing and prefers to work with a limited number of customers and provide a better level of service than if he offered his own direct customers a lower price and had more of them....

Originally Posted by Sleats

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1. Can you tell us more about Michael's background?
He trained at Paul Smith Bespoke and with Joe & Roy from Chittleborough and Morgan
Thanks, this is fairly verifyable

2. Who do the tailors in the UK and overseas work too. John, Micheal or you?
All staff are employed by us... Is that what you mean.

Good point, when I say work too I mean there must be some communication between cutter and tailor. When John/Michael has cut the suit he passes it to a tailor, if there are any issues who does the tailor report too, you or John. I know from experience it is very difficult to manage an operation in China from London. I am concerned that after John has cut my suit it will disappear off into a black hole in China. All of the tailors I mentioned apart from Apsley tailor here in the UK, generally within walking distance of the cutter.


3. Are the UK tailors you use just used for finishing and the overseas operation for the making?
No we have coatmakers here and overseas.
Where would my suit be made?


4. What happens when I leave your shop with my bespoke suit? What after care do you recommend and where can I best achieve this

Aftercare is a long answer dependent on the garment/use etc etcbut in short
We have an agreement with Jeeves all customers with our items get a discount using their services or we offer sponge and press service ourselves
Excellent, do you sponge and press other tailors suits, how much is it and what is the turn around time?

5. Do you recommend all your bespoke client return after 3 months to see how the suit is wearing? Graham Browne do this

Without question. Good!


Regarding charges for ours and Johns suits - the difference comes in several areas.. We buy our cloth far cheaper than most as we make a large amount of suits and also we buy cloth on behalf of the other tailors we make for. John has been in the business for decades and has his set pricing and prefers to work with a limited number of customers and provide a better level of service than if he offered his own direct customers a lower price and had more of them....

I notice you have not commented on the MossBros/Dress2Kill Bespoke comments. Here my question still stands. I not being rude, but this is business. I want the best bang for my buck possible. Otherwise I will get sold crap rubbish like I was at King and Allen. You said yourself you do confuse people. I am merely trying to unconfuse them

Originally Posted by WhippingBoy

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I notice you have not commented on the MossBros/Dress2Kill Bespoke comments. Here my question still stands. I not being rude, but this is business. I want the best bang for my buck possible. Otherwise I will get sold crap rubbish like I was at King and Allen. You said yourself you do confuse people. I am merely trying to unconfuse them

Regarding places like Moss Bros selling their MTM as 'bespoke', there was a recent court ruling where the courts refused to protect the narrow application of the word as it is used here on StyleForum; they ruled that the word 'bespoke' can be used by a company called Sartoriani to apply to their product, which is essentially made to measure. Unfortunately this means that now any company can legally claim their suits are 'bespoke' as long as they are custom made. This is certainly confusing, for the customer who isn't informed about the differences, but with the backing of the courts there is nothing that can be done to stop this.

It is also understandable that Sleats does not want to get into a in-depth conversation about the shortcomings of his competitors, especially on an internet forum.

I think I'm familiar with this 2008 ruling. The recently bankrupt Sartoriani?
Probably because they sold crap MTM suits as bespoke

Credit to Sleats, he has answered the questions honestly and if I were looking for a new bespoke tailor I would pay them a visit. But I would insist that all manufacture be done in the UK. I would also expect him to be able to compete on that basis with the other tailors I mentioned , in terms of product, production process, people and like for like price.

As far as commenting on his competitors, Sleats, who has a better understanding of the Moss Bros operation than I, has openly claimed they are selling there MTM product as bespoke in an attempt to provoke a discussion. If this is openly stated and Brian Brick would like to engage in such a debate, fine. However, this is not the case. If as Sleats claims Brian is selling his suits as bespoke knowing that they are not bespoke, legal ruling or not, I think this is misleading, disingenuous and morally suspect at best

Whippingboy, I speak on the MossBross front as a somewhat of an insider as I have discussed with Brian several times the Mossbespoke offering indeed know the business quite well. Although I do hasten to add we are not involved in this business. But he is also not breaking the law in calling his suits bespoke (perhaps unfortunately indeed) but a ruling is a ruling and they and many other businesses do pass off m2m as bespoke. I think to brand the approach as "misleading, disingenuous and morally suspect at best" is slightly over egged. Although I will also add that m2m should be called m2m and not bespoke - but I don't make the laws...more is the pity!

I understand that you want the most "bang for your buck" but I think you are best to speak to companies in person to get a personal approach, as that is what tailoring offers. Unfortunately writing slightly antagonistic pieces on forums isn't the most helpful in getting people on side and answering questions. I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience with K&A but it is worth remembering that one mans meat is another man poison so to brand them as Kack and Allen even as a competitor I find a bit of a shame. Recalling your disappointment is not an issue but I think demeaning their business in such a way does not do anyone any benefit.

Re manufacture: I can assure you unfortunately a Made in England tag does not mean it is made to a better standard at all. And if we were not able to "Compete with the other tailors I mentioned , in terms of product, production process, people and like for like price" We wouldn't have a business. I will also stress again that we make/made for companies mentioned on this post and in many others all of which we pretty much produce in our workshop overseas, where they tell you they are made, countrywise is up to their them (but all of which are sold as unquestionably bespoke) . From a british manufacturing family if I could produce it all here I would but where many tailors produce a couple of suits a week perhaps, we produce dozens and unfortunately there is not a work pool here to do that. We have 35 coatmakers in our bespoke team overseas all of whom make to the same high standard finding another 35 here would be nigh on impossible.


Re talking about the work of other tailors....It is not something I think is helpful, it is a small industry and you will find we all know each other and are a pretty civil bunch in the main.
Nor would my comments be seen as unbiased despite my best endeavors being in effect a competitor so in short I would, if you are in the future looking for a new tailor as you seem to know the basics go into the shops in person and begin to build a relationship and once you have found a tailor that works for you stick to it and tell all your mates that is how we all survive.

Originally Posted by WhippingBoy

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I think I'm familiar with this 2008 ruling. The recently bankrupt Sartoriani?
Probably because they sold crap MTM suits as bespoke

Credit to Sleats, he has answered the questions honestly and if I were looking for a new bespoke tailor I would pay them a visit. But I would insist that all manufacture be done in the UK. I would also expect him to be able to compete on that basis with the other tailors I mentioned , in terms of product, production process, people and like for like price.

As far as commenting on his competitors, Sleats, who has a better understanding of the Moss Bros operation than I, has openly claimed they are selling there MTM product as bespoke in an attempt to provoke a discussion. If this is openly stated and Brian Brick would like to engage in such a debate, fine. However, this is not the case. If as Sleats claims Brian is selling his suits as bespoke knowing that they are not bespoke, legal ruling or not, I think this is misleading, disingenuous and morally suspect at best

Well said, James. I hope WhippingBoy calms down a little now.

James, is your 'fully handmade bespoke' option made in England, or that too partially overseas?

Originally Posted by TheWraith

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Well said, James. I hope WhippingBoy calms down a little now.

James, is your 'fully handmade bespoke' option made in England, or that too partially overseas?

Hi,

Both is the answer just depends on our work load, turn around times, Customer etc etc.

Sounds good. And, if the quality is high, either way is fine with me

So to sum up: Graham Browne do fully bespoke suits using a floating canvas and hand made in their shop for under £1000. Cad & Dandy do fully bespoke suits hand made both in their shop and overseas for under £1000. Apsley bespoke suits start from £500? Sims and MacDonald do fully bespoke suits hand made in their shop for under £1000. Plus they have interest free account scheme i do like the option of super 150's with a pinstripe made of platinum if I win the lottery

Whipping boy,

I'd like to correct you on a couple of points.

Fielding & Nicholson offers both a fully bespoke service and made to measure.

The tailoring for our full bespoke offering is cut and finished by hand by our own in house tailor Raymond Chung, who works out of our Clerkenwell base. Raymond has also worked in Savile Row and has great pedigree in the industry. At only £1200 plus VAT it is excellent value for the quality of workmanship and man hours that are put into this garment.

Our made to measure offering is there as literally an entry level to get those interested who would not or could not afford full bespoke garments. This is made both in Yorkshire and overseas.

Please don't bracket us in the same category as those mentioned as we are a high quality English company working with English cloth merchants and cutting in England.



Ian Cotterill said:

Whipping boy, 

I'd like to correct you on a couple of points. 

Fielding & Nicholson offers both a fully bespoke service and made to measure. 


The tailoring for our full bespoke offering is cut and finished by hand by our own in house tailor Raymond Chung, who works out of our Clerkenwell base. Raymond has also worked in Savile Row and has great pedigree in the industry. At only £1200 plus VAT it is excellent value for the quality of workmanship and man hours that are put into this garment.

Our made to measure offering is there as literally an entry level to get those interested who would not or could not afford full bespoke garments. This is made both in Yorkshire and overseas.

Please don't bracket us in the same category as those mentioned as we are a high quality English company working with English cloth merchants and cutting in England. 

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Yes Mr Fielding, lets clarify.

When I last spoke to you (around 12 months ago), you informed me and I worked out the following

1. You are not a tailor. You used to work for Tom James as a 'professional clothier', which is a sales driven operation.
In fact you explicitly state in your job advertisments for 'professional clothiers' that they need no tailoring experience
http://www.simplysalesjobs.co.uk/jobs/retail/london/field_sales_executive-354204.html

2. Your made to measure (or as you described to me, semi bespoke) starts at £1200+vat (£1440). I do not meet my cutter. I would have consultations and fittings with a 'professional clothier' who has no tailoring backgound. Your cutting for these suits is done in Leeds, if I remember. Could you please clarify if this semi-bespoke is fully canvassed or half. And if work is done overseas (cuting and tailoring?), are you going through Mr Sleater?

3. Your full bespoke, kicks off at £2400+vat (£2880). Raymond (he doesn't work on your mtm?), I belive trained in Hong Kong. You informed me though that he has done some work at/for Richard Anderson. Steven Hitchcock charges £2250+vat. Tom Mahon charges £2260+vat. I'd rather have them, with their background build my suit, and I will save £200

4.You do not (or last time I spoke to you, you did not) stock Holland and Sherry cloth. All other professional tailors do! Is this due to a falling out with Tom James (who are part of the same IAG that own H&S)

5. You informed me you expect your customers to pay the full price UP FRONT. Every other tailor I have spoken to is happy to do at least 50% on order 50% on delivery. When challenged on this you told me 'our customers like it that way'. Well, do you even offer then the option? For the record , I am a customer, I don't like it that way!

5. if I go to Graham Browne, Sims, Mr Antoniou or even Cad, I can meet and consult with professional cutters and tailors that are, in my opinion, better value than you. No offence but why should I give you £1500 for a suit and have Alexander Riley (a man who used to run soccer camps) sort me out, when I can give Mr Sleater less £1k and I can have Jon DeBoise cut and fit my suit and I can have it made in the UK. Unless you can differentiate yourself from the competion its a bit of a no-brainer really

6. You appear to be doing a lot of these groupon/kgb deals recently, £1500 suit down to £600!!! Can you please tell us the business model for this please? It doesn't make sense offering a £1.5K suit for £600!!!! If this is not the case, lets all visit you and get a fully canvased suit for £600!

And by they way, have you kissed and made up with Simon Cundey yet after you used Henry Poole photos on your website without their permission. Would you care to explain to the forum why you used these photos to descibe your work in the first place. This could be miscontrude by customers as misrepresentation, or perhaps worse, copyright theft!



TheWraith said:

Try Cad & the Dandy. I think (if memory serves) you can get full bespoke for the price (or around it) the OP asks for. Or try Barrington Ayre. The latter will gladly travel to London to meet clients.

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Tom from Barrington Ayre is my regular shirt tailor and is doing the bespoke Great Coat that I have threaded about so I will second this recommendation!

At this rate whipping boy there won't be any tailors left in the UK willing to make you a suit!

WhippingBoy, I admire your numbered-bullet-to-post-count-ratio.

Thank you for your patient and candid posts Sleats. Your blog is wonderful too. Very informative and original.