• Hi, I am the owner and main administrator of Styleforum. If you find the forum useful and fun, please help support it by buying through the posted links on the forum. Our main, very popular sales thread, where the latest and best sales are listed, are posted HERE

    Purchases made through some of our links earns a commission for the forum and allows us to do the work of maintaining and improving it. Finally, thanks for being a part of this community. We realize that there are many choices today on the internet, and we have all of you to thank for making Styleforum the foremost destination for discussions of menswear.
  • This site contains affiliate links for which Styleforum may be compensated.
  • We would like to welcome House of Huntington as an official Affiliate Vendor. Shop past season Drake's, Nigel Cabourn, Private White V.C. and other menswear luxury brands at exceptional prices below retail. Please visit the Houise of Huntington thread and welcome them to the forum.

  • STYLE. COMMUNITY. GREAT CLOTHING.

    Bored of counting likes on social networks? At Styleforum, you’ll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis.

    Click Here to join Styleforum's thousands of style enthusiasts today!

    Styleforum is supported in part by commission earning affiliate links sitewide. Please support us by using them. You may learn more here.

Shoes: C&J or Carmina?

aj_del

Distinguished Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
6,673
Reaction score
128
^^ Best if I take a pic ... give me some time.

Currently I have the Lowndes and Prestwood and since they are reasonably different shoes styling wise, its difficult for me to say if they are identical or not. But if they are not identical, they are very close.
 

Mac

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2010
Messages
412
Reaction score
3
Originally Posted by upnorth
How much was the declared value of the shoes? I think it requires a fair bit of paperwork if you want to get your money back but not impossible, i dun think. Chances if they don't fit, you could speak to Armoury about returning and getting another size, while keeping your local custom and the courier informed so you do not need to pay anything on the next shipment. It's a real shame, but I'm sure you are already prepared as I have warned you earlier regarding the duties. It just baffles me how an EU made product gets exported to Asia and is re-imported back to Europe again.
I was charged £77 for VAT. In the UK it has just gone up to 20%—which means The Armoury must have said they're worth £385, when they're only worth £307. Then I've got handling fees etc that all add up. The thing is, I'm a 12 and I don't believe The Armoury stock any size larger than that. So if they don't fit and I do return them, I'll be out about £150 including postage and fees. Exactly, how they can recharge for VAT is beyond me, but that's the way it is.
plain.gif
Unless The Armoury claim VAT back because they're not in the EU. I'm going to query that.
 

tim_horton

Distinguished Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
653
As someone who's owned both C&J benchgrade and handgrade shoes and Carminas (well, one pair
satisfied.gif
) I have to echo the sentiments expressed that the Carminas comparable to handgrades. The leather looks a lot nicer on the Carminas than it does on the benchgrades I've owned. I'm not an expert in shoe construction by any means but the quality of the Carminas seems comperable to the hand grades. FWIW they both have channeled soles. I'm not about to rip either of them apart though!
biggrin.gif


I would have a hard time saying which is "better" when discussing the handgrades vs. the Carminas. It would come down to how a particular last fit my feet, and what styles are available in each. I.e. there are no quarter brogues (my favorite style of dress shoe) in the C&J handgrade line.
 

Marcellionheart

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
674
Reaction score
19
If you were going to get hit with import duties, they should not have charged you VAT at the point of sale.
 

upnorth

Distinguished Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
1,497
Reaction score
16
Armoury did not charge VAT. They are based in HK. VAT is the responsibility of the buyer when he pays duties. I was simply pointing out the irony that a product goes around the world and only to come back close to home once again and yes, i am taking a shot at Carminas poor distribution within EU.
 

Xiaogou

Distinguished Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
Messages
3,792
Reaction score
59
Originally Posted by upnorth
and yes, i am taking a shot at Carminas poor distribution within EU.

I second this. Since the Armoury has an account with Carmina, there is no reason why Carmina cannot ship directly to Mac.

Oh no! Maybe Carmina is really made in C#1N^.

lol8[1].gif
j/k
 

TKDKid

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
Messages
679
Reaction score
6
Originally Posted by Mac
I was charged £77 for VAT. In the UK it has just gone up to 20%"”which means The Armoury must have said they're worth £385, when they're only worth £307. Then I've got handling fees etc that all add up.

The thing is, I'm a 12 and I don't believe The Armoury stock any size larger than that. So if they don't fit and I do return them, I'll be out about £150 including postage and fees.

Exactly, how they can recharge for VAT is beyond me, but that's the way it is.
plain.gif
Unless The Armoury claim VAT back because they're not in the EU. I'm going to query that.


http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/tax-and-duty.htm

In particular:

Customs duty is a tax charged on importation of goods produced outside the European Union (EU)
Goods imported to the UK from outside the EU are subject to Import VAT
The Import VAT percentage rate is applied to the total value of the goods. In the case of goods brought in this is the sterling equivalent of the price paid abroad, as shown on the receipt. In the case of goods posted from outside the EU, it is the amount on the Customs Declaration, which includes the price paid for the goods, the cost of transport, postage and packing, insurance and any duty that may be payable.
I got hit by import duty, VAT and handling fees when I bought a pair of Stuart's Choice / Grenson Masterpieces from a member here. I had to get in touch with HMRC and send them proof that the shoes were made in England. I managed to claim back the import duty, which then reduced the amount subject to VAT* and so claimed a little bit of that back as well.

The really annoying thing was that the customs declaration form on the package clearly stated that the shoes were made in England, so I shouldn't have been charged import duty in the first place. Not sure how Parcel Force could justify the handling fees if they couldn't even handle my package correctly.
censored.gif


* As per my last quote, it turns out that import VAT is applied to the sum of the value of the goods, postage, insurance and import duty...!
crazy.gif
This may explain why your VAT figure was so high.
 

Mac

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2010
Messages
412
Reaction score
3
TKD, did your package come from outside the EU? I sent HMRC an email earlier saying:
I recently bought a pair of shoes from a company called The Armoury in Hong Kong. The shoes are made by a Spanish company called Carmina, however The Armoury in Hong Kong is the only place to buy them. Since these shoes are made by a company within the EU, surely they are not subject to Customs Duty and Import VAT if they are brought back into the EU—for example, to me in the UK? I was charged £111.25— £26.42 for Customs Duty, £71.33 for Import VAT and a clearance fee of £13.50 by Parcelforce which is obviously understandable. The Invoice date was 07/02/2011, the tracking reference is ************ and the country of origin was Hong Kong.
Hopefully I'll be able to claim back the majority of the money and get these shoes over to me! TKD, thank you for pointing all of this out.
fistbump.gif
Would you advise me to pay the fee then try to reclaim it, or wait until it's adjusted first?
 

TKDKid

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
Messages
679
Reaction score
6
Originally Posted by Mac
TKD, did your package come from outside the EU?

I sent HMRC an email earlier saying:



Hopefully I'll be able to claim back the majority of the money and get these shoes over to me!

TKD, thank you for pointing all of this out.
fistbump.gif
Would you advise me to pay the fee then try to reclaim it, or wait until it's adjusted first?


Yeah, the package came from the US, hence me being able to claim back the import duty but not the import VAT. I suspect the same will apply to you, unfortunately.

In my case, I decided to pay the fee first just to get my hands on the package and see what the customs declaration form said. After all, HMRC would've been well within their rights to charge me if they couldn't tell that the shoes were made in the EU. (This was before I found out about how import VAT worked.)

To make my claim, I had to send HMRC:

- the original customs declaration form on the package;
- the original customs/postal charges form that I received;
- a copy of my order transaction with the sender; and
- evidence that the shoes were made in England (I sent photos of the shoes and shoe box).

Obviously you'll need your package to provide some of the above.

Good luck!
smile.gif
 

Odd I/O

Distinguished Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
1,112
Reaction score
85
Originally Posted by aj_del
^^ Best if I take a pic ... give me some time.

Currently I have the Lowndes and Prestwood and since they are reasonably different shoes styling wise, its difficult for me to say if they are identical or not. But if they are not identical, they are very close.


aj_del, how does the 348 compare with the 358 in regards to width? Another member mentioned that the 358 was identical to the 348 only a little wider. The extra width would be advantageous to me.
 

Toiletduck

Distinguished Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2006
Messages
2,499
Reaction score
11
Hi guys,

Here's some input from HK - and also for duties in general.

I'm sorry to say that most of the import duties and VAT issues are out of our control. One thing to note is that Import duties and VAT (value added tax) are two completely different things

1) Import duties should always be levied upon import of the said good into the UK, unless the country has had a bilateral agreement with country of origin on lower/0% tax.

There are some exceptions DEPENDING on country e.g. used and personal items, gifts, commercial samples etc. Looks like from TKDkid & your experience, the UK gov't is quite strict. Best way to find out the exceptions is to call your local customs authority and find out what is exempted.

In your case, the best case to get money back would be to emphasize shoes are "MADE IN SPAIN" - This may help. I am not brushed up on the duty regulations in Europe, but I believe EU + UK have an agreement for free duty.

disclaimer: bilateral agreements concerning duty sometimes are nullified if goods go through a third country

2) VAT will always be charged by the UK gov't if you are the end consumer. Only if the gov't misses it.

Hope the above helps. I'm really sorry it has not been a good experience with your shoes

Alan from the Armoury
 

Toiletduck

Distinguished Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2006
Messages
2,499
Reaction score
11
Also on the subject of shipping straight out from Carmina -

We do not hold stock at Carmina, nor do they hold stock of shoes at their headquarters. It seems they run a pretty light operations and can only ship out from their retail stores if available there. Also, if you have been to their stores in Spain, which they would have more communications with, it seems that they have limited runs of more unique styles + lasts which are somewhat different to us.

We will try to talk to them to see what other possibilities there are to help cater to the UK & EU market in the future!
 

Toiletduck

Distinguished Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2006
Messages
2,499
Reaction score
11
Originally Posted by Xiaogou

Oh no! Maybe Carmina is really made in C#1N^.

lol8[1].gif
j/k


Haven't seen great quality shoes out of China. There have been quite a lot of Chinese makers ordering from these big brands trying to copy - but it has mostly been copies of style only. They don't have the right machines and expertise ...yet... especially in the shoe-making arena. Hopefully they'll be able to do good quality shoes soon!

Wouldn't mind seeing some quality shoes made in China in order to also see some quality hit the market at affordable prices!

nest.gif
 

Mac

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2010
Messages
412
Reaction score
3
Originally Posted by Toiletduck
Hi guys,

Here's some input from HK - and also for duties in general.

I'm sorry to say that most of the import duties and VAT issues are out of our control. One thing to note is that Import duties and VAT (value added tax) are two completely different things

1) Import duties should always be levied upon import of the said good into the UK, unless the country has had a bilateral agreement with country of origin on lower/0% tax.

There are some exceptions DEPENDING on country e.g. used and personal items, gifts, commercial samples etc. Looks like from TKDkid & your experience, the UK gov't is quite strict. Best way to find out the exceptions is to call your local customs authority and find out what is exempted.

In your case, the best case to get money back would be to emphasize shoes are "MADE IN SPAIN" - This may help. I am not brushed up on the duty regulations in Europe, but I believe EU + UK have an agreement for free duty.

disclaimer: bilateral agreements concerning duty sometimes are nullified if goods go through a third country

2) VAT will always be charged by the UK gov't if you are the end consumer. Only if the gov't misses it.

Hope the above helps. I'm really sorry it has not been a good experience with your shoes

Alan from the Armoury


Thanks Alan.

I sent them an email yesterday but am still awaiting a reply. All goods shipped throughout the EU (including Spain and UK) are subject to no VAT. I hope I can get at least some of my money back.

By the way, do you stock 12.5UK in shoes"”incase these are a little tight?
 

Featured Sponsor

How important is full vs half canvas to you for heavier sport jackets?

  • Definitely full canvas only

    Votes: 55 35.5%
  • Half canvas is fine

    Votes: 60 38.7%
  • Really don't care

    Votes: 17 11.0%
  • Depends on fabric

    Votes: 27 17.4%
  • Depends on price

    Votes: 28 18.1%

Forum statistics

Threads
505,161
Messages
10,579,036
Members
223,882
Latest member
anykadaimeni
Top