Ph.D. or PhD on business card

Originally Posted by MrRogers

Click to expand...

Many individuals seeking psychological services are looking for "psychologists" Ph.D.'s and Psy.D.'s over MS level "therapists." In this situation, a distinction is necessary as some therapists were grandfathered the label of "psychologist" and do not hold a doctorate degree.

Your "embarassment" reveals your intellectual inadequacy. Don't be so threatened by others with more education than yourself.

MrR

My intellectual capacity has nothing to do with this. In fact, if you think ones intellectual abilities are measured by education, then you probably have some issues to sort out.

I still think if you have the gonads to call yourself Doctor if all you've done is write some forgetable paper which someone MIGHT reference in a frenzied last ditch effort to hand in a 1000 word undergrad paper 20 years down the road, then I think you should probably visit a urologist to see if your manhood measures up.

Originally Posted by kwiteaboy

Click to expand...

My argument is that those holding "M.D." degrees aren't doctors at all, but rather physicians. The title "Doctor" is an academic title reserved for those at the height of education, that being, the Doctor of Philosophy degree and the dissertation production/defense that goes with it, so calling someone with an M.D. "Doctor" is giving him or her more credit that he or she has earned.

I'm gonna be such an ass when I've got those three letters..

That might be true, but see how much the average person cares when you tell them you're a doctor because you wrote a philosophy dissertation, and the guy who just did the heart transplant isn't. I think that will be a very sobering experience for you. Or, tell that to any doctor after you just got out of your 1982 puke brown Ford tempo and he's stepping into his $80,000 lexus. Since you're on style forum bragging about some credentials, obviously you're superficial enough to be affected by the aforementioned.

Any doctor goes through as many years of training and school as you did, albeit some very difficult ones. I have no problem with people who get PhDs in Philosophy, but you'd think you might have more respect for someone who has accomplished a difficult task, and has a far more significant chance of actually doing something in their life which will benefit other people in some way.

It says "Doctor of Medicine" in every doctor's medical school diploma. I would not blame them for calling themselves "Doctors" after they have been told that is what their degree is.
Actually I would venture a guess that title "Doctor of Medicine" predates the "Doctor of ....... insert your field" title by a few thousand years.

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

Click to expand...

It says "Doctor of Medicine" in every doctor's medical school diploma. I would not blame them for calling themselves "Doctors" after they have been told that is what their degree is.
Actually I would venture a guess that title "Doctor of Medicine" predates the "Doctor of ....... insert your field" title by a few thousand years.

Actually, physicians, at the end of the 19th century, and the beginning of the 20th (iirc, I could have the timeline mixed up,) sought to distinguish themselves from surgeons (not particularly well regarded at that time, to say the least) by adopting the honorific "Doctor" taken from the prestigious "Doctor of Philosophy designation. In historical context, the academic "Doctor of Philosophy" has been much more prestigious than the lowly physician. That the title of "Doctor" is more commonly associated with physicians, and that surgeons are now held in high esteem mark societal changes and changes in our use of language.

Originally Posted by Violinist

Click to expand...

Any doctor goes through as many years of training and school as you did, albeit some very difficult ones. I have no problem with people who get PhDs in Philosophy, but you'd think you might have more respect for someone who has accomplished a difficult task, and has a far more significant chance of actually doing something in their life which will benefit other people in some way.

Have some respect for psychologists, they help a lot of people. I wouldn't go to a surgeon to deal with PTSD like I wouldn't go to a psychologist for a heart transplant. It's not like physicians are somehow better than psychologists because their school is more expensive or longer.

kwiteaboy is technically correct. The standard term for physician is "doctor" like the standard term for facial tissue is "Kleenex". It's not a big deal.

Originally Posted by seanchai

Click to expand...

Have some respect for psychologists, they help a lot of people. I wouldn't go to a surgeon to deal with PTSD like I wouldn't go to a psychologist for a heart transplant. It's not like physicians are somehow better than psychologists because their school is more expensive or longer.

kwiteaboy is technically correct. The standard term for physician is "doctor" like the standard term for facial tissue is "Kleenex". It's not a big deal.

"giving him or her more credit that he or she has earned"

Well, given his premise that physicians who call themselves doctors give themselves more credit than they deserve, but psychologists who earn a PhD deserve full credit, there is a problem here. He is basing this on schooling, and therefore I am as well. You might not agree with this, but by defending his assertion I am assuming that you do. I think medical school compares to just about any academic training in difficulty.

Doctors used to be like tradesmen over a century ago. Now they're decidedly more upper class. I'm still of the opinion that anyone in american society besides maybe politicians who insist on titles are compensating for something. I know of enough physicians who never do it, and most PhDs don't either. If I'm speaking with someone quite respectfully and address them by "Prof", and he/she corrects me by saying "Dr.", then I pretty much write them off. I think it's completely self indulgent to insist on titles outside of professional situations.

Originally Posted by Violinist

Click to expand...

If I'm speaking with someone quite respectfully and address them by "Prof", and he/she corrects me by saying "Dr.", then I pretty much write them off. I think it's completely self indulgent to insist on titles outside of professional situations.
I would find it strange to for someone to correct you when you call them "Prof", as Professor is a higher distinction than Dr. in academia. Unless they have a Ph.D and aren't yet a professor, then I would call it modesty. I assume you're against calling an Army Captain by his title then too, outside of professional situations.

First of all, I don't hold a Ph.D yet. Secondly, the title "doctor" is reserved by the US DoEd and NSF for people holding doctorates (which are, on average, 6-7 year degrees) rather than four-year professional degrees like the M.D., so physicians who have an M.D. are incorrect in calling themselves "doctor" but physicians with both an M.D. and a doctorate of some kind can rightfully call themselves "doctor". Thirdly, Doctor philosophiae is the title of the most common academic doctorate, and doesn't only refer to those with doctorates in philosophy, so the assumption that someone with a Ph.D. wrote a philosophy dissertation is most of the time incorrect.

My discipline is clinical psychology, which I think (but what do I know, since I'll be poor and worthless when my schooling is finished) MIGHT stand a chance of helping people, with, say, psychological disturbances?

In terms of academia, the doctorate is the highest degree attainable and confers the title of Doctor. The M.D. is not the highest degree attainable and does not confer the title of Doctor. That's my point.

I don't mean to discount the difficulty of medical training, or the achievement of someone with an M.D. I have a lot of respect for physicians, but I think the average person has little respect for actual Doctors (regardless of the color or year of their Ford Tempo).

It's very true that medical doctors were only recently (by comparison to academic doctors) afforded honors and respect. Not long ago, surgeons enjoyed the same social status as barbers.

That said, medical doctors have far surpassed academic doctors in all visible signs of the community's support, respect, and honor.

Further, the tenure-track job is an endangered species. For every three that are vacated, only one is created. (Those are round numbers; I do not pretend to know for sure the real statistics.)

The Ph.D., however, will only become more commonplace. As universities fail to replace tenure-track lines, they are forced to staff their lower-level courses with part-time workers. There is no better pool of part-time teachers than Ph.D. candidates, who tend to be young, unmarried, childless, and in little need of health care or high salaries. This pool of labor is especially attractive to isolated "university towns" that have little in the way of a standing talent pool from which to hire qualified university instructors.

So the Ph.D. programs will continue to churn out the Ph.D.s so they can use Ph.D. candidates to staff the courses that were once taught by tenured or tenure-track professors.

Originally Posted by Violinist

Click to expand...

"giving him or her more credit that he or she has earned"

Well, given his premise that physicians who call themselves doctors give themselves more credit than they deserve, but psychologists who earn a PhD deserve full credit, there is a problem here. He is basing this on schooling, and therefore I am as well. You might not agree with this, but by defending his assertion I am assuming that you do. I think medical school compares to just about any academic training in difficulty.
Medical school is both an academic and a technical education. A Ph. D. is a research degree which indicates that the holder has made some original contribution to human knowledge. An MD, on the other hand, indicates that one has received adequate training to practice medicine.

Which one provides more good for the human race is debatable, but they're not really comparable from an academic standpoint.

Originally Posted by kwiteaboy

Click to expand...

First of all, I don't hold a Ph.D yet. Secondly, the title "doctor" is reserved by the US DoEd and NSF for people holding doctorates (which are, on average, 6-7 year degrees) rather than four-year professional degrees like the M.D., so physicians who have an M.D. are incorrect in calling themselves "doctor" but physicians with both an M.D. and a doctorate of some kind can rightfully call themselves "doctor". Thirdly, Doctor philosophiae is the title of the most common academic doctorate, and doesn't only refer to those with doctorates in philosophy, so the assumption that someone with a Ph.D. wrote a philosophy dissertation is most of the time incorrect.

My discipline is clinical psychology, which I think (but what do I know, since I'll be poor and worthless when my schooling is finished) MIGHT stand a chance of helping people, with, say, psychological disturbances?

In terms of academia, the doctorate is the highest degree attainable and confers the title of Doctor. The M.D. is not the highest degree attainable and does not confer the title of Doctor. That's my point.

I don't mean to discount the difficulty of medical training, or the achievement of someone with an M.D. I have a lot of respect for physicians, but I think the average person has little respect for actual Doctors (regardless of the color or year of their Ford Tempo).

You're forgetting the years of residency every doctor has to complete. They operate under a level of scrutiny that probably no other profession deals with, since it's life and death, not some glorified book report on King Lear or whatever.

Also, I was referring to PhDs in general. I'm sure you'll be great as a psychologist.

If I were in the army, I'd definately refer to my superiors appropriately. For me, governmental positions are different. I'd certainly use the terms Senator, Governor, Prime Minister, Mr. President etc...

I'm a J.D. You're welcome to call me doctor, and it only took me three years to get.

Originally Posted by kwiteaboy

Click to expand...

My argument is that those holding "M.D." degrees aren't doctors at all, but rather physicians. The title "Doctor" is an academic title reserved for those at the height of education, that being, the Doctor of Philosophy degree and the dissertation production/defense that goes with it, so calling someone with an M.D. "Doctor" is giving him or her more credit that he or she has earned.

I'm gonna be such an ass when I've got those three letters..

Hundreds of years before PhDs were first conferred, by German Universities, physicians were called 'doctor'. In most anglophone nations MD is a higher degree on par with PhD.

Originally Posted by not really

Click to expand...

Hundreds of years before PhDs were first conferred, by German Universities, physicians were called 'doctor'. In most anglophone nations MD is a higher degree on par with PhD.

True, but I was referring to the American system. In several countries (Ireland, for instance), medicine is a bachelor's level degree completed in six years, plus residency, whereas the M.D. refers to a doctorate that indicates the holder has contributed to the medical body of knowledge. I found it very strange when I studied in Ireland to be hanging out with 17-18 year old medical students.