RLBL-made in China?

Originally Posted by Annadale

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The sooner Hu Jintao calls in the marker on your bankrupt nation, the better. Your asses belong to the Saudi's and the Chinese now. Deal with it.

Good luck with that.

Originally Posted by A.L.Z.

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Please own one Made in China cashmere knitwear for one year.....and own one, say Made in Italy or Made in Scotland, for one year...and then compare

I own cashmere sweaters with all three such tags and they all perform/wear about the same.

Well, I'll chime in since someone asked for the Asian perspective. My family is from China/Taiwan, my father owns and runs a garment factory in China, I work for an American manufacturer in America as the accounting manager, and I have a very good interest in clothing, here's my 2 cents on some thoughts and concerns here.

Firstly, manufacturing in China has greatly improved, both the practices and the quality of product. That being said, most places do not have practices anywhere near the minimum standards we have in America. The plant I work at is unionized, pays a good wage with insane benefits, and generally speaking, they are happy. Our competitors that are not unionized still get paid pretty well, and generally are happy too. In China, as far as I know still, there are no unions (hell, there's only one political party), and there are no where near any laws protecting the worker. My fathers garment factory pays a decent wage based on the standard of living in Shanghai. They take home money to feed their family, smoke their cigarettes, and drink their booze. They also get a free lunch which, admittedly, is rather greasy and the chef goes through a 40 lb bag of MSG weekly. Do any of his workers drive Lexus's (Lexi?)? No, they all take the bus, but most people in China do too. Do they live in the luxury that most blue color workers do in America? Again, no but I honestly feel that the thought process of people in China are a bit different; saving money, live within your means, no whim buying, little to no credit, but than again, if you did this in America you'd be quite well off to. Tying this into clothing, if you want me to buy a RLBL sweater from Italy for $750, you move your factory to China and still charge me $750, all things else being the same, the game is all about profit. Does that bother you?

Secondly, we talk about passion for what we do. I am truly passionate about accounting; I ******* love to do costing, create prices, give deals/screw people over, work with management, etc... On the flip side, I've seen many people that do what they do because it pays the bills, and while they don't hate their jobs, they find that it is just something in life that everyone has to do. In my opinion, from the people I've met and the general attitude of some countries, I truly believe that there are more people in Italy that are truly passionate about the work they do and their finished product than there are in China on a percentage scale, and that there are more people in China that do the 8-8 (AM to PM) because it's their job and they need to pay the bills. Will two people, one passionate and one not, producing the same finished goods produce the same quality? Maybe. Will the quality be the same in the long run? I think the quality from the passionate one wouldn't waver as fast as the unpassionate one. Tying this into clothing, whether or not it matters to you if the maker is passionate about it (and it does to some), all things being the same, does the origin of the maker matter to you?

Thirdly, quality control. Quality is very important, and yes, even the Chinese know that. But, "quality" is unfortunately relative - we sit on a porcelin toilet to ***********, and flush when we are done while many places in China you squat and poop into a hole (thank god new factories aren't like that). Some items in China are considered acceptable quality wise that we would find not so acceptable, and unless management from the top cracks down on this, you will find many ****** products that just slip through to distribution centers that may or may not get caught. Tying this into clothing, is management going to enforce a strict quality control at the port of manufacturing? Some do, some don't, some wait until they get a shipment of 15% "clearance irregulars," while others wouldn't find it acceptable.

I think it all comes down to the consumer. Some people are bothered at the labor practices in China like working 14 hours a day, and 7 days a week when deadlines for big orders are going to be very close. Some people are bothered that some countries are all about output, and don't have any passion for their product and therefore their product must be somehow inferior. Others just don't give a **** and just want a good quality item at a good price point. Personally, I don't mind paying retail/sales/clearances, I don't care about the country of orgin , but I do care about a quality product. That beign said, my closet doesn't have much in the way of Chinese goods.

Lastly, on a seperate note:

Originally Posted by cchen

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for those who don't like made in china, fyi a lot of production is already shifting away from China to Bangladesh, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc b/c of the rising labor costs

While some items are being moved out of China to even more "labor cost effective" countries, the thing that will make a lot of items from China is throughput; China can make a lot of ****, other countries combined may not be able to ramp up production that high. If you need 1 million shirts in a month, Vietnam can only produce 300k at $10/shirt, and China can make 5 million at $11/shirt, you may buy 300k from the Vietnamese but the majority of your order is going to be through China, even if the price is higher.

Originally Posted by robin

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I own cashmere sweaters with all three such tags and they all perform/wear about the same.

You are blind, mad, or lying.

Quality comes from the ordering company. QC can be enforced tightly if the upper management has eyes on it.
Do Ralph Lauren crack hard on quality? No idea, but my made in China (Polo stuff) sweater had hold out as well as my made in Scotland stuff (Brooks Brothers) ones.

By the way you're not going to find China brand name in clothing, because it's not the way it operates. It's like how Taiwanese's electronic company used to be. You don't hear a single brand from Taiwan but all the component are made in Taiwan (back in the days), they just take orders. This has changed now as people start to realize how powerful a brand name is.

Now that's electronics/cars and other heavy industrial products, would the same happen in textile? Maybe, but probably not today or tomorrow, might take a bit longer.

Things like this always goes in cycle,

150 years ago, English laugh at product coming out from Germany
100 years ago, European laugh at product coming out from America
50 years ago, American laugh at product coming out from Japan
20 years ago, American laugh at product coming out from Korea

so how many years before China can make a change?

Dam whiny people. I think some people secretly keep a list of examples to harass the ethnics. For blacks: affirmative action. Oh Harvard...but look at his SAT score. For Mexicans: illegal immigration. Yummy shrimp burrito...wait, you legal? For Asians: slave labor. Oh nice cashmere sweater... but it's slave labor! The reality is that people complain about "Made in China" only when they clearly can't afford that item. Mcdaddy's problem is just that--he can't afford the $750 (on sale for $400) sweater sold by RL. Attacking RL for the mark-up proves futile so he picks an easy target, the people who made it. If you're a cheap-ass, then look elsewhere. Bulgarians and Mexicans make some great cashmere sweaters at lower costs, go for those instead. RL sells a "made in China" sweater for $750 because Chinese like me buy it. China, like Japan and Germany of the 50s, started out making mostly economy lines so Westerners would buy it. At this point, they're doing so well, that even their own consumers have enough of the basics to desire better quality. So they move upscale. Ergo, $750 made in China sweater. Have you ever walked in a Hermes, LV, or Cartier store? It's mostly Chinese people that are buying the limited editions. What this means is that "you" are no longer the targeted consumers. You may find "made in China" pricey items repulsive; I welcome it. Embrace the wind of change my friend.

Originally Posted by A.L.Z.

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You are blind, mad, or lying.

perform

Originally Posted by Pantisocrat

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Dam whiny people. I think some people secretly keep a list of examples to harass the ethnics. For blacks: affirmative action. Oh Harvard...but look at his SAT score. For Mexicans: illegal immigration. Yummy shrimp burrito...wait, you legal? For Asians: slave labor. Oh nice cashmere sweater... but it's slave labor! The reality is that people complain about "Made in China" only when they clearly can't afford that item. Mcdaddy's problem is just that--he can't afford the $750 (on sale for $400) sweater sold by RL. Attacking RL for the mark-up proves futile so he picks an easy target, the people who made it. If you're a cheap-ass, then look elsewhere. Bulgarians and Mexicans make some great cashmere sweaters at lower costs, go for those instead. RL sells a "made in China" sweater for $750 because Chinese like me buy it. China, like Japan and Germany of the 50s, started out making mostly economy lines so Westerners would buy it. At this point, they're doing so well, that even their own consumers have enough of the basics to desire better quality. So they move upscale. Ergo, $750 made in China sweater. Have you ever walked in a Hermes, LV, or Cartier store? It's mostly Chinese people that are buying the limited editions. What this means is that "you" are no longer the targeted consumers. You may find "made in China" pricey items repulsive; I welcome it. Embrace the wind of change my friend.
Interestingly on recent visit to Singapore I noticed the high mark-up for designer goods there, e.g. Church shoes selling for SGD1200 (£600; almost twice what I would pay at full retail here in the UK), prices for a lot of middle of the road designer goods were at least 50-100% more than what I would pay in Europe at full retail. The sales prices were the equivalent of the full retail prices here in the UK... From what I understand from friends and colleagues who work in China, the prices there are similar or higher than SG ones... There's a burgeoning middle and upper class in China and Asia that are wealthier and with more disposable income than their equivalents in the US or here in the UK. IMO it's simply a matter of time before fashion houses gear up most of their production for sale in lucrative Asian markets. Retailers like Paul Smith, etc. already do this, with specific lines tailored for Asian domestic markets. SR houses are trying to get their foot in the door with local licensees for their RTW and MTM products. Why is it so hard for Americans and Europeans (though I find Americans especially) to accept that they are no longer the centre of the universe? Power is shifting across the Pacific. While the US and Europe have been in the dumps with the "global" (ahem perhaps that should be renamed the "US & European recession") recession, Asia has been booming with growth rates that knock the socks of the US/Europe.

Originally Posted by Pantisocrat

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Dam whiny people. I think some people secretly keep a list of examples to harass the ethnics. For blacks: affirmative action. Oh Harvard...but look at his SAT score. For Mexicans: illegal immigration. Yummy shrimp burrito...wait, you legal? For Asians: slave labor. Oh nice cashmere sweater... but it's slave labor! The reality is that people complain about "Made in China" only when they clearly can't afford that item. Mcdaddy's problem is just that--he can't afford the $750 (on sale for $400) sweater sold by RL. Attacking RL for the mark-up proves futile so he picks an easy target, the people who made it. If you're a cheap-ass, then look elsewhere. Bulgarians and Mexicans make some great cashmere sweaters at lower costs, go for those instead. RL sells a "made in China" sweater for $750 because Chinese like me buy it. China, like Japan and Germany of the 50s, started out making mostly economy lines so Westerners would buy it. At this point, they're doing so well, that even their own consumers have enough of the basics to desire better quality. So they move upscale. Ergo, $750 made in China sweater. Have you ever walked in a Hermes, LV, or Cartier store? It's mostly Chinese people that are buying the limited editions. What this means is that "you" are no longer the targeted consumers. You may find "made in China" pricey items repulsive; I welcome it. Embrace the wind of change my friend.
First of all,I had no intrest in the sweater,in my OP I clearly stated it was ugly.Some sweaters that I have now:Avon Celli For Louis Boston.,Attolini for Luciano Barbera for Louis Boston,Paul smith cable knit,a bespoke v neck from Hockley(the fur people),Zegna,Loro Piana,PRL USA,Brooks Brothers Cashmere made in Scotland,And an older Hugo Boss Black label made in Italy(anyone know who might make it?).Read my op,I simply wanted to know if there are real RLBL MIC sweaters or if it was a knock off.Ralph Laren has been bugging me for a while with their made in 20 different places PRL merchandise,and then the Made in Italy Corneliani all within the same line.I just thought that the made in 3rd world country items stopped at PRL and didn't carry over to BL and PL.

Originally Posted by academe

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Interestingly on recent visit to Singapore I noticed the high mark-up for designer goods there, e.g. Church shoes selling for SGD1200 (£600; almost twice what I would pay at full retail here in the UK), prices for a lot of middle of the road designer goods were at least 50-100% more than what I would pay in Europe at full retail. The sales prices were the equivalent of the full retail prices here in the UK... From what I understand from friends and colleagues who work in China, the prices there are similar or higher than SG ones... There's a burgeoning middle and upper class in China and Asia that are wealthier and with more disposable income than their equivalents in the US or here in the UK. IMO it's simply a matter of time before fashion houses gear up most of their production for sale in lucrative Asian markets. Retailers like Paul Smith, etc. already do this, with specific lines tailored for Asian domestic markets. SR houses are trying to get their foot in the door with local licensees for their RTW and MTM products. Why is it so hard for Americans and Europeans (though I find Americans especially) to accept that they are no longer the centre of the universe? Power is shifting across the Pacific. While the US and Europe have been in the dumps with the "global" (ahem perhaps that should be renamed the "US & European recession") recession, Asia has been booming with growth rates that knock the socks of the US/Europe.
hi Academe, This phenomenon has played out before. Hermes was the first to see the phenomenon just like the two guys at Goldman during the sub-prime housing mess, and made a profit . The location was Japan. The Japanese pay more than their Western counterparts for the same goods for much of the 80s. Eventually, the lux houses took notice and started designing items specifically for the Japanese market. This means adding traditional Asian themes. As Japanese purchasing power waned in the late 90s, it was the HKers and Taiwanese that bought most of these goods at the Japan-based stores. This is also the reason why I keep saying "WTF" of late whenever Dunhill, Mont Blanc, Cartier and the Swiss Watch Mfgs. re-invent and remarket yet another pricey piece with dragons. Interestingly, when I was in Paris, all the lux. flagship stores staff Chinese/multilingual Asian sales assistants. Just take a look at timezone.com. Those hairless Asian wrist shots usually sport some pretty $$$ loaded time jewelry. => is Chinese too. Pride makes some people blind to reality.

I was at some menswear trade shows last week.

The Chinese can make as well as they are trained and paid to do.

The high end is very good.

One company was doing Roman style, or Neapolitan style, or Ivy style, each to a high standard, with full canvas, handsewn buttonholes, etc. Style details of each were correct and attractive, for ex the barchetta pocket on the Neapolitan was the right shape, etc. Prices are quite low. Not sure if they own their own factories, but these are Chinese brands.

One brand already discussed on these boards is Crittenden, founded by Crit Rawlings, the ex-Oxxford guy who is now making hand tailored clothing in China that has been well reviewed by SF members.

I have not been to China, don't know the process--just the product. It's good.

Originally Posted by MacDaddy

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First of all,I had no intrest in the sweater,in my OP I clearly stated it was ugly.Some sweaters that I have now:Avon Celli For Louis Boston.,Attolini for Luciano Barbera for Louis Boston,Paul smith cable knit,a bespoke v neck from Hockley(the fur people),Zegna,Loro Piana,PRL USA,Brooks Brothers Cashmere made in Scotland,And an older Hugo Boss Black label made in Italy(anyone know who might make it?).Read my op,I simply wanted to know if there are real RLBL MIC sweaters or if it was a knock off.Ralph Laren has been bugging me for a while with their made in 20 different places PRL merchandise,and then the Made in Italy Corneliani all within the same line.I just thought that the made in 3rd world country items stopped at PRL and didn't carry over to BL and PL.
"ugly". "third-world." Yeah, you're a first-world class act who can't afford a $400 sweater. This is your original post small-timer

Originally Posted by MacDaddy

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I saw a Ralph Lauren Black Label Moto sweater today with the factory price tag marked at $750.It was 90% Merino,7% nylon and 3%spandex and looked like crap.It was BNWT and the tags didn't list a country of origin,but the label said Made in China.It's similar to this one currently on their website that's also listed for $750 but not quite as ugly. http://www.ralphlauren.com/product/i...entPage=family I know quite a bit of PRL and some RLBL belts and small accessories are made in China,but a $750 sweater?Granted that's list price and they sell it for $400,but WTF?
You're experiencing what psychologists call cognitive dissonance. You want it but don't want to pay for it. If you want bargain, I suggest eating at Mcdaddy's.

Originally Posted by academe

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Interestingly on recent visit to Singapore I noticed the high mark-up for designer goods there, e.g. Church shoes selling for SGD1200 (£600; almost twice what I would pay at full retail here in the UK), prices for a lot of middle of the road designer goods were at least 50-100% more than what I would pay in Europe at full retail. The sales prices were the equivalent of the full retail prices here in the UK... From what I understand from friends and colleagues who work in China, the prices there are similar or higher than SG ones... There's a burgeoning middle and upper class in China and Asia that are wealthier and with more disposable income than their equivalents in the US or here in the UK.

I honestly can't say I can agree with that from the experience, albiet not lifetime, I have in China and Taiwan in regardless of why higher end goods are more expensive. My main reason is that there is a huge disparity of wealth in China, much worse than Western countries. Let me give you a hypothetical example:
300 million population of the United States, 10% are rich, 30% are middle class, and 60% are poor. Assuming rich being relative enough to easily afford EG/G&G/JL, only 25% of the upper middle class can afford these, and of course poor people are just poor so they can never know how great JL's are. 300 million * 10% rich + 300 million * (30% middle class * 25% upper middle) = 52.5 million potential customers.
1.3 billion population of China, 3% are rich, 3% are middle class (assuming 25% upper middle class), 94% will never never be graced with EG's. 1.3 billion * 3% rich + 1.3 billion * (3% middle class * 25% upper middle) = 78 million potential customers.

Why is there such a disparity? Education being one, rich people can sometimes afford better such as sending their parashoot kids to America for education, some poor people have to take their kids out of school to go to work. Promotions and working yourself way up are pretty tough, if non existant too. I work for a (very large) corporation I've got 6 people above me (boss is senior manager -> director -> vp -> svp -> cfo -> ceo), while I've got a few supervisors under me, and a slew of workers under those supervisors. In China, there are a load of workers (maybe changed with tech manufacturing but I've only seen garment), one supervisor, one manager, and whoever the owner is; try climbing to the top of that. A lesser issue, which thankfully is much better now, is bribery as it takes more capital to start a business since you need to pay people off, and established people can pay officials off to get more **** done. I'm talking about giving out holiday ATM cards.

Dude you're so dumb and poor not to buy that $400 sweater. Get a job you racist.

Originally Posted by Pantisocrat

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Dam whiny people. I think some people secretly keep a list of examples to harass the ethnics. For blacks: affirmative action. Oh Harvard...but look at his SAT score. For Mexicans: illegal immigration. Yummy shrimp burrito...wait, you legal? For Asians: slave labor. Oh nice cashmere sweater... but it's slave labor! The reality is that people complain about "Made in China" only when they clearly can't afford that item. Mcdaddy's problem is just that--he can't afford the $750 (on sale for $400) sweater sold by RL. Attacking RL for the mark-up proves futile so he picks an easy target, the people who made it. If you're a cheap-ass, then look elsewhere. Bulgarians and Mexicans make some great cashmere sweaters at lower costs, go for those instead. RL sells a "made in China" sweater for $750 because Chinese like me buy it. China, like Japan and Germany of the 50s, started out making mostly economy lines so Westerners would buy it. At this point, they're doing so well, that even their own consumers have enough of the basics to desire better quality. So they move upscale. Ergo, $750 made in China sweater. Have you ever walked in a Hermes, LV, or Cartier store? It's mostly Chinese people that are buying the limited editions. What this means is that "you" are no longer the targeted consumers. You may find "made in China" pricey items repulsive; I welcome it. Embrace the wind of change my friend.

Beautifully said, and so,so true!