Is Law School a Losing Game? Article

nerdykarim · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

if you can get t2 or t3 with little/no debt coming out it's a great deal for you.

I'm just a lowly law student, but I would say that bottom of t1 (which is USN top 50, IIRC) with little/no debt is probably the riskiest move I'd make. Maybe t2 w/ no debt if you were super passionate about lawyering (which I am not). But I definitely wouldn't characterize it as "a great deal."

Connemara · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by nerdykarim

I'm just a lowly law student, but I would say that bottom of t1 (which is USN top 50, IIRC) with little/no debt is probably the riskiest move I'd make. Maybe t2 w/ no debt if you were super passionate about lawyering (which I am not). But I definitely wouldn't characterize it as "a great deal."
+1. RJ, what makes a law degree with no debt attached a deal when you're working at Home Depot?

Rugger · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by Modern Day Adonis

What, you don't enjoy the heavily saturated market? I'm assuming you're primarily speaking to those attending Tier 3 and 4 schools? I see little point in pursuing a legal education if you're not going to be competitive in your class and/or nationally. The demand certainly isn't good enough to justify a legal education with mediocre credentials. Nothing in the article surprised me but I've already done a good deal of research on the topic. However, I do agree that they should enforce stricter regulations in the surveys. Surveys without strict regulations are far too easy to manipulate.
I believe the article makes a point that it is a better investment for the T2-4 students based on likely investment, opportunity cost and likely starting salary.

Originally Posted by Connemara

+1. RJ, what makes a law degree with no debt attached a deal when you're working at Home Depot?
It's a deal because you could be T2 with no debt and home depot, or T1 with 150k in debt and home depot.

rjakapeanut · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by nerdykarim

I'm just a lowly law student, but I would say that bottom of t1 (which is USN top 50, IIRC) with little/no debt is probably the riskiest move I'd make. Maybe t2 w/ no debt if you were super passionate about lawyering (which I am not). But I definitely wouldn't characterize it as "a great deal."

yeah you're right, i guess i meant if it were the right situation for you. it depends, though. it's all about what you want to do. if you're someone who wants to work in the public sector or get a government gig or something like that and you go to a good regional school ranked 55th-80thish it can make alot of sense. especially if it's free. without any debt you can just say "well i have the JD now, if i want to use it i can if not i can move on."

Originally Posted by Connemara

+1. RJ, what makes a law degree with no debt attached a deal when you're working at Home Depot?

anything free is a deal imo. the market will pick up, too.

nerdykarim · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

anything free is a deal imo. the market will pick up, too.
Seriously? It's far from free. Even if you get full tuition/room and board, it's an extremely unpleasant three years of lost wages.

rjakapeanut · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by nerdykarim

Seriously? It's far from free.

Even if you get full tuition/room and board, it's an extremely unpleasant three years of unearned wages.

yeah. guess it all depends.

Connemara · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

anything free is a deal imo. the market will pick up, too.
So three years of absence from the workforce, three years of wages lost, is free? I'm going to echo what other people have been saying: you come across as very immature and naive.

BC2012 · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

nothing wrong with not wanting big law or working a government job. $50k a year is plenty for some people.

besides a JD opens doors for you.

Hey, I agree fully. If you love law and want a career in it (and don't care about money as much) a T3 school with little debt can be awesome. It's the fact that most people hear "law school" and think bottle service, Italian suits, and 6-figure pay that is the problem. Hell, the notion of T14 and you're set is pretty much gone now, too.

lee_44106 · Jan 8, 2011

so how is a dude with $250K in debt still living in NYC and eating in a restaurant in UES?

Maybe the dude should blame the dipshit dumbass in the mirror..........

BC2012 · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by nerdykarim

Seriously? It's far from free.

Even if you get full tuition/room and board, it's an extremely unpleasant three years of lost wages.

Especially if you leave a job that pays more than $50k-ish. Odds are you'll be back in the workforce making what you made before + debt (full tuition doesn't cover living expenses in most cases) + three years of lost salary. The NPV on most law school decisions is negative.

If law salaries weren't so bimodal it wouldn't be too bad. If you could take a "MidLaw" job paying $90k and do so from a middle-of-the-road "good" school (think Villanova or Temple), it'd be a different story. But the fact it is boom-or-bust, $160k or $50k, for private jobs makes it a bad decision in many cases from a financial standpoint.

rjakapeanut · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by Connemara

So three years of absence from the workforce, three years of wages lost, is free?

I'm going to echo what other people have been saying: you come across as very immature and naive.

no reason to get really hostile. i'm being really reasonable. depending on who you are three years absent from the workforce isn't a really big deal as long as you didn't lose money in the process. maybe i'm wrong here but that doesn't give you the right to say i'm immature or naive just because i happen to be younger than you.

Originally Posted by BC2012

Hey, I agree fully. If you love law and want a career in it (and don't care about money as much) a T3 school with little debt can be awesome. It's the fact that most people hear "law school" and think bottle service, Italian suits, and 6-figure pay that is the problem. Hell, the notion of T14 and you're set is pretty much gone now, too.

yeah that's a huge problem. i agree 100%. people have unrealistic expectations and think a JD is a license to print money.

Modern Day Adonis · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by BC2012

Hey, I agree fully. If you love law and want a career in it (and don't care about money as much) a T3 school with little debt can be awesome. It's the fact that most people hear "law school" and think bottle service, Italian suits, and 6-figure pay that is the problem. Hell, the notion of T14 and you're set is pretty much gone now, too.

My most realistic/ideal school choice is University of Iowa. I'm a state resident, could live at home, and could possibly land a scholarship there. Worst case scenario I sink $60,000 into a JD. Which I don't believe would be that bad for a decent school. Heck, that's on par with the tuition for most T3/T4 schools.

Connemara · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by Modern Day Adonis

My most realistic/ideal school choice is University of Iowa. I'm a state resident, could live at home, and could possibly land a scholarship there. Worst case scenario I sink $60,000 into a JD. Which I don't believe would be that bad for a decent school. Heck, that's on par with the tuition for most T3/T4 schools.
I hope you realize that $60,000 is a lot of money. That is quite a bit more than the annual salary of the average American.

ConcernedParent · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

maybe i'm wrong here but that doesn't give you the right to say i'm immature or naive just because i happen to be younger than you.

Yeah I'm sure that's why everyone thinks you're an immature little twit.

nerdykarim · Jan 8, 2011

Originally Posted by Modern Day Adonis

My most realistic/ideal school choice is University of Iowa. I'm a state resident, could live at home, and could possibly land a scholarship there. Worst case scenario I sink $60,000 into a JD. Which I don't believe would be that bad for a decent school. Heck, that's on par with the tuition for most T3/T4 schools.

Originally Posted by Connemara

I hope you realize that $60,000 is a lot of money. That is quite a bit more than the annual salary of the average American.

I'd probably sink 60k into a law degree from Iowa, tbh (I grew up in DSM). Iowa's ranked top thirty or so, right? With a liberal arts degree, you really don't have a lot of options that have any upward potential.

I'll be in just a little bit less for my JD/MBA at UGA. I don't think I've made a horrible investment.

Is Law School a Losing Game? Article

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