Job Referenced:Ethical Question

Originally Posted by NH_Clark

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+10x

small world nowadays.. especially with the advent of the worlzwidezwebz. Things like this have a way of coming back and biting you in the a$$.

This is completely wrong. No one is coming to look for you for giving a good reference to a bad employee. Companies don't contact the reference again after the fact. Once you give the reference, you no longer have any involvement or responsibility at all.

Not to mention the fact that quite often an employee is great at one company/job, but unfortunately is doing poorly at his new job. A reference isn't a guarantee - all you are you saying is while this dude worked for me, he did a great job. End of story. Nobody is promising that he will also do a great job for you, since he did for me.

References are overrated anyway. People don't give bad references now, because the employee could sue you. The laws have changed in this regard. All you can really do is give a great reference or simply acknowledge that the employee worked for you.

Originally Posted by harvey_birdman

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If he's a friend I would simply choose not to complete the recommendation. Don't give him a bad recommendation, and don't lie and give him a good one, just forget to send back the paperwork. It's the only way to come out of this.

do this^^^

Originally Posted by deadly7

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If he gets hired and ***** it up it will look very badly on you. If he gets hired and makes the company 300 billion dollars in 24 hours, you'll look like a god. If you think he leans more toward the former instead of the latter, then find a way to discreetly give him bad marks without him finding out it was you.

how so? unless the position is within your industry..who gives a flyning fluff!

rule number one...never rat on your friends.

Personally, youre a total dick if ya send in a bad reference for a friend. either dont send it or lie. If you send a bad reference for a friend, he deserves to know.

Originally Posted by Robert Evans

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This is completely wrong. No one is coming to look for you for giving a good reference to a bad employee. Companies don't contact the reference again after the fact. Once you give the reference, you no longer have any involvement or responsibility at all.

Not to mention the fact that quite often an employee is great at one company/job, but unfortunately is doing poorly at his new job. A reference isn't a guarantee - all you are you saying is while this dude worked for me, he did a great job. End of story. Nobody is promising that he will also do a great job for you, since he did for me.

References are overrated anyway. People don't give bad references now, because the employee could sue you. The laws have changed in this regard. All you can really do is give a great reference or simply acknowledge that the employee worked for you.

Actually, this is completely right. In the high tech space (not saying this particular example is) it is a small world. Not that someone would "come after you" for a bad reference but memories are long and I'd definitely remember someone who gave me a "this guy walks on water" reference and the employee turns out to be the worst ever.

Originally Posted by NH_Clark

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Actually, this is completely right. In the high tech space (not saying this particular example is) it is a small world. Not that someone would "come after you" for a bad reference but memories are long and I'd definitely remember someone who gave me a "this guy walks on water" reference and the employee turns out to be the worst ever.

And again:

Not to mention the fact that quite often an employee is great at one company/job, but unfortunately is doing poorly at his new job. A reference isn't a guarantee - all you are you saying is while this dude worked for me, he did a great job. End of story. Nobody is promising that he will also do a great job for you, since he did for me.

Maybe he did walk on water at his previous job, but hates working for you and your company. It could be you and not him or just that this job isn't for him. But he could leave your job and walk on water for someone else. See how this works?

Originally Posted by DerekS

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rule number one...never rat on your friends.

Personally, youre a total dick if ya send in a bad reference for a friend. either dont send it or lie. If you send a bad reference for a friend, he deserves to know.

Absolutely - your friends comes first. Who the **** cares what the HR person thinks of you if you lie for your friend. I am actually surprised that people are debating this here. If you are not loyal to your friends and help them whenever you can, they are better off without you.

Originally Posted by Robert Evans

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And again:

Not to mention the fact that quite often an employee is great at one company/job, but unfortunately is doing poorly at his new job. A reference isn't a guarantee - all you are you saying is while this dude worked for me, he did a great job. End of story. Nobody is promising that he will also do a great job for you, since he did for me.

Maybe he did walk on water at his previous job, but hates working for you and your company. It could be you and not him or just that this job isn't for him. But he could leave your job and walk on water for someone else. See how this works?

True, but you'd have to recognize that by doing this, you're screwing the next person who wants to transition from company A to company B.

Company B will just come to believe that Company A has very low standards, and none of their employees can hang in a tougher environment.

Originally Posted by Robert Evans

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Absolutely - your friends comes first. Who the **** cares what the HR person thinks of you if you lie for your friend. I am actually surprised that people are debating this here. If you are not loyal to your friends and help them whenever you can, they are better off without you.
A friend who asks you to lie for him, especially in a professional capacity, is not a friend. EDIT - I may have a skewed outlook on this, as I am not in "corporate" America, but rather work in a medium-sized legal bar where everyone is only two or three steps removed from everyone else. I have often been asked to give a reference, as a co-worker or as a peer, for another attorney. I am fortunate that I've been honestly able to give a good reference every time. If the situation arose where I was called upon to lie for another attorney, even if that attorney were a close friend, I would not do it. Attorneys may be human scum, but some of us do take our ethical obligations seriously.

Originally Posted by harvey_birdman

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A friend who asks you to lie for him, especially in a professional capacity, is not a friend.

I dont think the friend asked him to lie...the friend probably thinks his friend likes him and would give him a good reference. Id NEVER ask someone to lie for a reference...id ask someone who i know would give me a good one.

This is why you should always keep in good relations and regular contact with your references, and why you should always make sure they are comfortable being your references. Your friend didn't take this very crucial step. You should feel no guilt, therefore, about the situation. I like the suggestion of writing a good reference but stating in the reference that you have a personal friendship. The hiring party (HR, hiring manager, or otherwise) will read between the lines.

The other thing to consider is that your recommendation carries basically no weight unless you are a bigshot in your friend's industry. No one will care too much what your rec says. Your rec will not be the make-or-break factor in your friend's application process.

Finally, don't write bad recs. They are a legal minefield. When asked about former employees or associates who sucked, I simply state "I can verify that this person worked with me from X date to Y date in the position of Z." That is the universally recognized code for a non-endorsement. It is more than sufficient. I wouldn't suggest doing this to a good friend, obviously.

Originally Posted by tj100

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True, but you'd have to recognize that by doing this, you're screwing the next person who wants to transition from company A to company B.

Company B will just come to believe that Company A has very low standards, and none of their employees can hang in a tougher environment.

Who the **** cares what Company B thinks - he's your friend and that is the priority. I have never in my life heard someone getting burned in their career, because he gave a great reference to a bad employee or for an employee that just didn't work out (even if he was great at the previous job).

Your involvment ENDS the second you hang up the phone with the person you are giving the reference to. Nothing is coming back to haunt you or bite you **********. You are simply helping your friend and that is the way it should be.

Originally Posted by Robert Evans

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Who the **** cares what Company B thinks - he's your friend and that is the priority. I have never in my life heard someone getting burned in their career, because he gave a great reference to a bad employee or for an employee that just didn't work out (even if he was great at the previous job).

Your involvment ENDS the second you hang up the phone with the person you are giving the reference to. Nothing is coming back to haunt you or bite you **********. You are simply helping your friend and that is the way it should be.

+fukkin 1. this ain't that hard!

Originally Posted by Robert Evans

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Who the **** cares what Company B thinks - he's your friend and that is the priority. I have never in my life heard someone getting burned in their career, because he gave a great reference to a bad employee or for an employee that just didn't work out (even if he was great at the previous job).

Your involvment ENDS the second you hang up the phone with the person you are giving the reference to. Nothing is coming back to haunt you or bite you **********. You are simply helping your friend and that is the way it should be.

Is he your only friend? What if you have another friend, one who's actually good at their job, and you can't help them out because your credibility is shot?

I would probably say that the best approach is a: "I'd really like to give a great reference, but my company policy is to just confirm dates of employment."

Originally Posted by tj100

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Is he your only friend? What if you have another friend, one who's actually good at their job, and you can't help them out because your credibility is shot?
I would probably say that the best approach is a: "I'd really like to give a great reference, but my company policy is to just confirm dates of employment."

did i miss where the OP said that he works with the friend? it can be a personal reference....

Originally Posted by harvey_birdman

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A friend who asks you to lie for him, especially in a professional capacity, is not a friend.

EDIT - I may have a skewed outlook on this, as I am not in "corporate" America, but rather work in a medium-sized legal bar where everyone is only two or three steps removed from everyone else. I have often been asked to give a reference, as a co-worker or as a peer, for another attorney. I am fortunate that I've been honestly able to give a good reference every time. If the situation arose where I was called upon to lie for another attorney, even if that attorney were a close friend, I would not do it.

Attorneys may be human scum, but some of us do take our ethical obligations seriously.

What if your friend just has a hard time with employment for valid reasons and isn't a **** up. I have a friend who has ADD and anxiety problems that sometimes have come into play with his job and he has been fired. If I can at least try to help him get a new job, so he can avoid being homeless - I will do that.

By the way, lawyers lie every single day and that includes you (without even knowing you) - it's part of the profession and everyone knows this, so you may want to dial it down on the ethical obligations speech.