Vass vs. Alfred Sargent "Handgrade"

Originally Posted by Burton

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I know you keep saying they are a poor value, yet you cannot point out a reason they are. Who do you think made G+G's shoes? Their shoes are made using the same processes and the same materials with the same crafts people as G+G and EG. To me, that is the level of their quality --unless you have something different? We are all entitled to our opinions let's just not slosh them around as fact.

well ok you are saying they are the basically the same shoes in terms of the build and skills of the factory workers and materials used, but then why are AS around 50 pounds more expensive, for what are you are saying is basically the same shoe, for me thats where the value is or is not

but anyway lets stop here before we derail the thread any further

Originally Posted by Burton

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I know you keep saying they are a poor value, yet you cannot point out a reason they are. Who do you think made G+G's shoes? Their shoes are made using the same processes and the same materials with the same crafts people as G+G and EG. To me, that is the level of their quality --unless you have something different? We are all entitled to our opinions let's just not slosh them around as fact.

I don't think Luk-Cha said they are a poor value.
If we are talking about "value", I don't know why AS is better value than G+G for the extra GBP50 they charged. As you said their shoes were made using the same processes and the same materials with the same crafts people as G+G and EG.
Anyway, I think Vass give me better "value", if not "much better!"

Originally Posted by kolecho

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Below the belt.

Well sorry, I was a bit frustrated with comments like this: "to me AS topline are not more that C&J bench grade finsihed upper with a G&G styled sole which for me offer no value in their product." which are not justified.

Originally Posted by Fishball

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I don't think Luk-Cha said they are a poor value.
If we are talking about "value", I don't know why AS is better value than G+G for the extra GBP50 they charged. As you said their shoes were made using the same processes and the same materials with the same crafts people as G+G and EG.
Anyway, I think Vass give me better "value", if not "much better!"


Please see the quote above--in my opinion he did say they were a poor value. As to Vass, I did not compare AS to Vass other than to say my personal preference for suits are teh Sargent shoes. I believe the Sargent Handgrades are a better shoe than G+G and EG in terms of finishing. I believe here in the U.S. they are slightly less not slightly more.

i thought the AS handgrades were good value at the introductory price of 450gbp, but at 640gbp they come up against some stiff competition.

I have deliberately kept out of these conversations for some time, because I don't want to be seen as a "patsy" for any company.

I have developed a close relationship with Alfred Sargent over the years and initially I too was sceptical about what they have to offer. They have helped me overcome my scepticism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and most of the opinion here is subjective and that's fine.

However, I do take issue with the idea of "theft" when it comes to the designs. Having some basic understanding of the way the UK Shoe Industry operates, I think that if there was some notion of theft of designs, there would be litigation taking place. As far as I know, this has not been the case.

Therefore, there must be some other reason why these designs can be used without any infringement.

I have been fortunate enough to own shoes by main of the "better" RTW makers, so I based my opinions on my comparison.

However, I do wonder whether some of the comparisons between "brands" are based upon RTW vs Bespoke. I would expect there to be a wealth of difference between a RTW pair and bespoke pair.

Yes the price of the AS Handgrade does elevate it into the price range of some of the "popular" RTW makers. However, I think that it would make for a better critique if people had chance to sample the AS shoes as well as the makers they favour.

I will keep my other opinions to myself. However, some of you will have noticed that I have a few pairs of AS shoes and I will be having more (when finances permits).

Cheers

Clint

Originally Posted by fox81

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i thought the AS handgrades were good value at the introductory price of 450gbp, but at 640gbp they come up against some stiff competition.
+1

Originally Posted by clintonf

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I have deliberately kept out of these conversations for some time, because I don't want to be seen as a "patsy" for any company.

I have developed a close relationship with Alfred Sargent over the years and initially I too was sceptical about what they have to offer. They have helped me overcome my scepticism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and most of the opinion here is subjective and that's fine.

However, I do take issue with the idea of "theft" when it comes to the designs. Having some basic understanding of the way the UK Shoe Industry operates, I think that if there was some notion of theft of designs, there would be litigation taking place. As far as I know, this has not been the case.

Therefore, there must be some other reason why these designs can be used without any infringement.

I have been fortunate enough to own shoes by main of the "better" RTW makers, so I based my opinions on my comparison.

However, I do wonder whether some of the comparisons between "brands" are based upon RTW vs Bespoke. I would expect there to be a wealth of difference between a RTW pair and bespoke pair.

Yes the price of the AS Handgrade does elevate it into the price range of some of the "popular" RTW makers. However, I think that it would make for a better critique if people had chance to sample the AS shoes as well as the makers they favour.

I will keep my other opinions to myself. However, some of you will have noticed that I have a few pairs of AS shoes and I will be having more (when finances permits).

Cheers

Clint

I should not have used the words steal, maybe copied designs would be better. A classic shoe only has so many designs you can put on there so none of these guys are truly inventing wheels.

Originally Posted by cdmoore1855

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I should not have used the words steal, maybe copied designs would be better. A classic shoe only has so many designs you can put on there so none of these guys are truly inventing wheels.

Yes a better word, but still I believe the just has not come back with a verdict on who did the copying from whom. I, myself, would err on the side of longevity as the originator of the design. I will tell you that Chay and team are working very hard to have Alfred Sargent differentiate themselves from the other top flight shoemakers with unique approaches to very classic shoes. Like Clinton, I hope to enjoy many more pairs of shoes from Sargent.

Originally Posted by cdmoore1855

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I should not have used the words steal, maybe copied designs would be better. A classic shoe only has so many designs you can put on there so none of these guys are truly inventing wheels.

That's something that I completely agree with. I must say though that I had wondered why it was decided to use some of the designs for AS' new handgrade models when there are so many other designs around.

But what's out there is out there. I have been told that more designs will be produced in the coming months, so perhaps they will be sufficiently different as to get people to concentrate on how they are made as opposed to the other brands that they may resemble.

Cheers

Clint

Originally Posted by Burton

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Yes a better word, but still I believe the just has not come back with a verdict on who did the copying from whom. I, myself, would err on the side of longevity as the originator of the design. I will tell you that Chay and team are working very hard to have Alfred Sargent differentiate themselves from the other top flight shoemakers with unique approaches to very classic shoes. Like Clinton, I hope to enjoy manny more pairs of shoes from Sargent.

They can do what ever they like, but they could have treated their staff with a bit more dignity when times were tough.

As for the designs, just because they have been in existence for a long time does not mean they are not copying some of the newer boys designs and features. Take their MOORE adelaide semi brogue. Its an exact copy of the GG bespoke one that I have. I would not have minded so much had they really named it after me rather than England's 1966 footy captain.

Originally Posted by cdmoore1855

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Take their MOORE adelaide semi brogue. Its an exact copy of the GG bespoke one that I have. I would not have minded so much had they really named it after me rather than England's 1966 footy captain.

Originally Posted by Burton

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Yes a better word, but still I believe the just has not come back with a verdict on who did the copying from whom. I, myself, would err on the side of longevity as the originator of the design. I will tell you that Chay and team are working very hard to have Alfred Sargent differentiate themselves from the other top flight shoemakers with unique approaches to very classic shoes. Like Clinton, I hope to enjoy manny more pairs of shoes from Sargent.

I don't really want to get into taking sides on this. I do like AS shoes (as you appear to) and I will continue to get them when I can. I also get a little frustrated when people draw comparisons about copying or who trained who. However, I feel that at the end of the day, the shoes will do the talking.

It's just a shame that the shoes are not readily available to view (yet) and/or that people who pride themselves on owning and wearing fine shoes appear to be reluctant to invest in a pair (if only to do a genuine comparison).

It's cool to have a favourite (and again, I can only really talk from a RTW/MTM perspective - I've never had a bespoke pair of shoes) but like anything, one will tend to have a bias towards something they are happy with. It's just a little disappointing when people write shoes off without researching them.

I'll go back to hiding in the shadows!!! Enjoy your shoes.

Clint

Originally Posted by clintonf

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I don't really want to get into taking sides on this. I do like AS shoes (as you appear to) and I will continue to get them when I can. I also get a little frustrated when people draw comparisons about copying or who trained who. However, I feel that at the end of the day, the shoes will do the talking.

It's just a shame that the shoes are not readily available to view (yet) and/or that people who pride themselves on owning and wearing fine shoes appear to be reluctant to invest in a pair (if only to do a genuine comparison).

It's cool to have a favourite (and again, I can only really talk from a RTW/MTM perspective - I've never had a bespoke pair of shoes) but like anything, one will tend to have a bias towards something they are happy with. It's just a little disappointing when people write shoes off without researching them.

I'll go back to hiding in the shadows!!! Enjoy your shoes.

Clint


Clint,

I understand you perfectly. I hate the usual forum banter which is completely banal and useless. People make accusations and use rumor and innuendo as their basis for writing shite. I also think the shoes will do the talking in end. Since we both have the AS handgrades, we know they will speak well for themselves. Chay and I are working on some unique things for my next pair--a very special medallion.

Originally Posted by onix

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Don't assume if you never experienced it or heard it from reliable source
Me break golden rule.
Yes it foolish.
When me look at picture of AS leather and know they gemmed,
me assume they would be inferior to Vass,
me should assume to myself and keep it secret.
Sorry.