Death or This God-awful threak?

Originally Posted by samus

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It's indisputable that the number of calories obtainable per acre of farmland is much, much higher for grain and vegetables than for meat, even leaving aside the animal suffering involved. Are there major ecological issues with the way all food is produced in the world today? Of course. But then I haven't seen anyone claiming otherwise. Have fun with your straw men.

Originally Posted by Piobaire

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What is also indisputable is that gigantic tracts of non-arable land produce meat.
OK, gents, I know it's inconvenient to let facts get in the way, but Slate examined this very question: http://www.slate.com/id/2176420

Originally Posted by Piobaire

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What is also indisputable is that gigantic tracts of non-arable land produce meat.

You're right. I'm not arguing that we should stop using non-arable land for those purposes. I just find it laughable when people argue that adding land for vegetable farming is wasteful or bad for the environment when how many millions of acres of pristine rainforest have been destroyed for cattle farming, and the insult to injury is how much more productive vegetable farming is, in terms of feeding the world.

If we have to destroy forests to grow food (and I don't necessarily think we do), we might as well make the most of it. Using non-arable land to grow livestock (or the sea, gome) is in line with that principle.

a recent Cornell University study concluded that modest carnivorousness may actually be better for the environment than outright vegetarianism, since cattle can graze on inferior land not suitable for crops

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IC

This thread took a serious turn for the dull.

Originally Posted by kwilkinson

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This thread took a serious turn for the dull.
+1.

I have a question for you vegetarians out there, why won't you eat meat?

Will you eat fish? Oysters?

Is it because of animal suffering? Not all animals feel pain for instance.
How did you draw an arbitrary line between the Animal and plant kingdoms and decide one was ok and another was not?

What's the logical basis for being a vegetarian?

Originally Posted by gomestar

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IC

You must really be kidding. You pull a quote completely out of context, when the next paragraph partially refutes it:

But there are important caveats to the Cornell study: First, its calculations assume that all meat is raised locally, rather than frozen and trucked cross-country; second, the study recommended that to optimize land use, residents of New York state (where the research was conducted) limit their meat and egg consumption to two cooked ounces per day"”3.8 ounces less than the national average.

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One of my cousins turned into a raw vegan after college. He used to weigh around 250 lbs, now is down around 160 and is as tall as me. Though, he looks like death.

I guess he was visiting his brothers a week ago and had a bite of pepperoni pizza and commented on how good it was, but it would destroy his bowels if he ate a whole piece.

Originally Posted by Valor

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What's the logical basis for being a vegetarian?

A fair amount of empirical evidence suggests it offers considerable health benefits, including both an increase in the quality and quantity of life.

Originally Posted by Vintage Gent

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You must really be kidding. You pull a quote completely out of context, when the next paragraph partially refutes it:
It isn't refuted, it is qualified. Big difference.

Originally Posted by iammatt

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This is the height of silliness.

I call it like I see it. I don't attribute this to you, but there are many others in this thread to whom I do.

Originally Posted by iammatt

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lol wut? No it wasn't. It was started to find out how much the various people here valued eating a highly varied diet. I really don't care what other people eat. Why would I?

Uh huh. "Death or Veganism?" = "Do you value a highly varied diet?" Come on now, you even said this was a response to people in the Veal thread. This hasn't for one second been a good-faith discussion of variety in cuisine.

Besides, I bet the average vegan or vegetarian has a more varied diet than the average American omnivore.

Originally Posted by Vintage Gent

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A fair amount of empirical evidence suggests it offers considerable health benefits, including both an increase in the quality and quantity of life.
What kind of empirical evidence is there for quality of life? How does one measure it? Utes?

Originally Posted by Vintage Gent

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A fair amount of empirical evidence suggests it offers considerable health benefits, including both an increase in the quality and quantity of life.

What if I weight eating meat strongly in terms of utils compared to health benefits? Then I shouldn't be vegetarian right? And did these studies even take into account other factors? I seriously doubt the validity of most studies into length of life due to the exogenous factors.

Originally Posted by iammatt

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What kind of empirical evidence is there for quality of life? How does one measure it? Utes?

Reduced incidence of illness and disease--e.g. cardiovascular disease, diabetes, cancer.

Originally Posted by samus

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I call it like I see it. I don't attribute this to you, but there are many others in this thread to whom I do.



Uh huh. "Death or Veganism?" = "Do you value a highly varied diet?" Come on now, you even said this was a response to people in the Veal thread. This hasn't for one second been a good-faith discussion of variety in cuisine.

Besides, I bet the average vegan or vegetarian has a more varied diet than the average American omnivore.
Tongue was planted firmly in cheek when I started the threak, and it has continued to be so throughout. So you are right, it wasn't good faith, but good fun, at least from my point of view. Anyway, I really don't care what somebody else does. It does bother me when somebody gets preachy to another person about what they should eat, whether it is that they should try liver, eat only vegetables, eat meat, whatever.