Death or This God-awful threak?

worms are an important part of the eco system. They provide great nutrients to the soil and are a great benefit to many farmers.

Unfortunately, taking the strawberry off of the vine makes me feel like I'm exploiting all of the hard work of the worm. This, to me, is of far more consideration than the exploited humans used to make my world-peace statement shirt.

Originally Posted by gdl203

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Canine teeth... that's a pretty advanced argument right there

The very first one is hilarious though.

You laugh, but vegans have to deal with idiotic arguments like these on a daily basis. I feel bad for them.

Originally Posted by samus

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Let's play a game!

Samus, while I am not attacking vegans, I am interested to know if you feel any examination of the topic by an omnivore is "defensive"? Also, have to point out, vegans are omnivores too. Merely not eating meat does not change one's taxonomic classification.

Originally Posted by samus

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You laugh, but vegans have to deal with idiotic arguments like these on a daily basis. I feel bad for them.

You know what's funny? I have known tons of Indians (friends, colleagues, classmates) who were vegetarian and never ever heard them make a big deal out of it or complain of options at restaurants, etc... I've only seen this kind of behaviour with born-again veggies (and some kosher people, as noted earlier). Why do you think that is?

Wait... was this on your bingo card?

And about the baiting, I didn't think it would stir up such a response. I usually don't bring this stuff up in conversation, and when I do it's because I have to, i.e. I meet someone who mentions they're vegetarian/vegan. "Oh cool, I don't eat meat either." I don't get this much hate in conversation with meat eaters in person.

As for why I started begin vegan? I had been thinking about it for some time, met soeone who was vegan, and then read up a little about it. I tried it out, and found it's not so hard.

Originally Posted by Piobaire

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Samus, while I am not attacking vegans, I am interested to know if you feel any examination of the topic by an omnivore is "defensive"? Also, have to point out, vegans are omnivores too. Merely not eating meat does not change one's taxonomic classification.

Right. Because I was clearly speaking taxonomically and not merely using shorthand for non-vegetarian.

It's this kind of nitpicky, juvenile nonsense that makes me bristle. As stated earlier I'm not a vegetarian, but I do respect the choices of others. I'd be interested to see a good-faith discussion about the issues of food ethics involved (that go beyond just not using animal products - we've had good threads about grass-fed beef, etc.).

But all that's been presented here have been facetious arguments ("OMG what about the fieldmice?? Vegans are hypocrites") and strawmen ("What about the exploited humans?!"). If you're interested, maybe try again in a new thread without such blatant disdain.

Originally Posted by gdl203

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You know what's funny? I have known tons of Indians (friends, colleagues, classmates) who were vegetarian and never ever heard them make a big deal out of it or complain of options at restaurants, etc... I've only seen this kind of behaviour with born-again veggies (and some kosher people, as noted earlier). Why do you think that is? Wait... was this on your bingo card?
What do you expect anyone here to say? No, you've never been out with people who complain? All I know is, there are people of all stripes who are dicks at restaurants. I also have plenty of vegetarian and vegan friends with whom I dine out regularly without incident. On the other hand, voicing dietary restrictions in a reasonable manner (i.e., don't go to Fogo de Chao) does not a complainer make.

Fogo de Chao


jk jk

Originally Posted by samus

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Right. Because I was clearly speaking taxonomically and not merely using shorthand for non-vegetarian.

It's this kind of nitpicky, juvenile nonsense that makes me bristle. As stated earlier I'm not a vegetarian, but I do respect the choices of others. I'd be interested to see a good-faith discussion about the issues of food ethics involved (that go beyond just not using animal products - we've had good threads about grass-fed beef, etc.).

But all that's been presented here have been facetious arguments ("OMG what about the fieldmice?? Vegans are hypocrites") and strawmen ("What about the exploited humans?!"). If you're interested, maybe try again in a new thread without such blatant disdain.

If that was directed to my question, that is a complete mischaracterization. I did not call vegans hypocrites but rather asked by what philosophical metaphysic one appeals to in order to deem this method of eating more "ethical" than another. In fact, I asked if utilitarianism was used as the moral grounding on this, and I think a pretty good case based on utility could be used. In fact, and my memory is dim on this, but I think a very noted writer by the name of Peter Singer does just this. Hazy on that though.

I respect the choice of others too. I also rather bristle at folks that a) want to take away my foie gras (yes, not all vegans toss red paint at nice restaurants) and b) want to limit my choices (back to foie gras) and c) on the personal or anecdotal level raise a fuss at a social function (again, not all of them do that).

As to taxonomic vs. some short hand, I can only react to what's on the page.

Edit: Oh, you never answered my question. Do you feel any examination is "defensive"? I mean, what do I have to defend? I have no moral dileman, as you stated you felt people do, I could give a damn about how other folks eat...I'm just not seeing it. The fact you characterize it this way is loaded.

Originally Posted by samus

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Let's play a game!

very true

The nitpicking at any flaws in someone's veganism is very annoying. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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very true

The nitpicking at any flaws in someone's veganism is very annoying. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

So if it doesn't have to be all or nothing, what are the parameters? Is it okay to eat "humane" foie gras vs. gavage? Only have veal once a month?

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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The nitpicking at any flaws in someone's veganism is very annoying. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

tell that to these folks

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_108278892/

SONOMA, CALIF. -- Police suspect animal rights activists opposed to foie gras production of vandalizing a combination restaurant-gourmet store under development here by noted San Francisco chef Laurent Manrique, threatening his family and attacking his and his partners homes.

Manrique, executive chef of Aqua Development Corp. of San Francisco, whose noted Aqua restaurants also operate in Las Vegas and Orange County, Calif., is involved on a part-time basis in the vandalized wine country venture, Sonoma Saveurs.

The recent attacks and threats against the chef, his family and business associates--apparently sparked by Manrique's ties to foie gras production and promotion--triggered a multiagency police and FBI investigation. The events also prompted a show of unity by some of Manrique's peers and customers in San Francisco and renewed soul-searching among other operators about their use of foie gras.

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According to Sonoma police chief John Gurney, vandals caused an estimated $50,000 in damage to Sonoma Saveurs and adjoining but unrelated businesses in a historic adobe building late Aug. 12 or early Aug. 13. He said the miscreants spray-painted slogans "suggesting they were concerned about animal treatment" on the walls, fixtures and appliances and blocked drains with concrete before opening water valves to flood the space.

Weeks earlier, an unknown vandal or vandals damaged the homes and other property of Manrique and Sonoma Saveurs partners Didier and Leslie Jaubert, according to reports confirmed by a representative of the trio. Also confirmed by associates of Manrique was that his family was spied upon and secretly videotaped in its Bay Area home and subjected to veiled threats in letters sent by an anonymous source.

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Originally Posted by samus

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Really? This is difficult to figure out? Pepperoni tastes good, and maybe, just maybe, some people would like to still eat it if problematic issues of ethics and morality were removed from the equation?

The problem is none of these fake meat substitutes taste like the real thing. They're merely an approximation of real food and if you can't tell the difference between the two, your taste buds suck. There are enough protein substitutes one can use without creating these vegan frankenfood monstrosities. Tofu, seitan, chickpeas, beans, etc. all taste good without having to use food coloring and strange chemicals to make them seem like meat.

Originally Posted by Nil

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The problem is none of these fake meat substitutes taste like the real thing. They're merely an approximation of real food and if you can't tell the difference between the two, your taste buds suck. There are enough protein substitutes one can use without creating these vegan frankenfood monstrosities. Tofu, seitan, chickpeas, beans, etc. all taste good without having to use food coloring and strange chemicals to make them seem like meat.

+1. Since I revamped my eating habits last year, I figured out I've been going about eating healthier all wrong. Eat food for what it is. Don't shrink from it or try to make it something it's not.

Originally Posted by Piobaire

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So if it doesn't have to be all or nothing, what are the parameters? Is it okay to eat "humane" foie gras vs. gavage? Only have veal once a month?

I was mostly talking about when people bring up field mice that may be harmed in food production or if a vegan accidentally steps on an insect. I don't understand why people look for insignificant things, as if veganism must be flawless or else it is hypocritical.