Why should I give a damn about whaling?

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

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It's about their experience and consciousness, which are emergent properties of intelligence. I don't think anyone's arguing that we should spare whales and dolphins simply on account of their raw IQ. Personhood, or near-personhood, is a concept applied to beings that understand who they are in relation to the world and are capable of experiencing the world the way a person does.

- Probably all living beings understand who they are in relation to the world. Everything from micro organisms to huge whales. You pointed out that there is a movement to protect their rights, but the Swiss are also legally protecting plants (because plants are conscious according to science as well).

- Other life forms (including whales) do not experience the world in the way a person does, because THEY ARE NOT PEOPLE.

- Since you already pointed out that IQ is not a factor, there is nothing to back up your claim that whales should be protected over other life forms (as all life forms are conscious, understand who they are in relation to the world, and are not people).

And why should your ethical question dictate everyone else's life? Is it ethical to impose your ethics on others without their consent?

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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Not all living beings are conscious.
Yes, I understand this is your BELIEF, but just because you say so, doesn't mean it is true.

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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Of course they don't experience the world exactly like a human does (maybe not even people do), but they are conscious, self-aware thinking individuals with cognition like humans.
What!? Some people don't experience the world like humans? I agree whales may be self conscious, self aware, thinking animals, but they are not like humans. They are like whales. All other living forms may be self aware, etc. as well, but they are not like humans. Giving whales a special status, because you believe they are self aware and other life forms are not has no logical basis.

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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Animal eyes for example, they may not all be equally developed/evolved, the same, useful, among animals but they are still eyes that are used to see. The same way consciousness is a shared human trait with dolphins, it still works the same way even if it's not identical.
I don't think is a good example to support your view. Bugs have eyes, snakes have eyes, etc, etc., but they are not human. Using your example, all living forms could be conscious and self aware.

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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Whatever is done to show "consciousness" of plants is completely different when showing the consciousness of animals. Dolphin self-awareness is observable. We also have humans (who we know for sure are conscious/self-aware) to compare with dolphins and other animals. This is useful for behavior analyzing, brain chemistry, etc. to compare with humans. This can't be done with plants.
Whether it be a dolphin, whale, plant, or human, the way scientists try to prove consciousness is by observing the behavior/reaction to stimuli in an experiment.
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TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. This experiment shows that the bird is self aware (conscious, understand who it is within this world, etc.) The bird is the same as the whale and dolphin, but none of them are like people. There is no reason to discriminate between whales and other life forms.

Not that you should believe all the science that is out there, but here are some scientific experiments that contradict your BELIEFS that whale and dolphin, etc. are conscious, self aware, while other life forms are not:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0613145535.htm

Here are some snippets for quick reading:

Keio University scientists have shown that pigeons are able to discriminate video images of themselves even with a 5-7 second delay, thus having self-cognitive abilities higher than 3-year-old children who have difficulty recognizing their self-image with only a 2 second delay

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So according to this study, and your reasoning, pigeons are more like humans than people.

Self-recognition is found in large primates such as chimpanzees, and recent findings show that dolphins and elephants also have such intelligence. Proving that pigeons also have this ability show that such high intelligence as self-recognition can be seen in various animals, and are not limited to primates and dolphins that have large brains

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See how your logic (and some others in this thread) is completely flawed?

It's not only dolphin and whales that are self aware, conscious, etc. Scientists are finding that many (and perhaps all) life forms are self aware, therefore since "consciousness" is the basis for your discrimination, your whole idea is completely flawed.

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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The logic doesn't become flawed, it just gets more complex.

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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It's not flawed though, I'm not saying protect whales/dolphins and forget every other animal. Other animals like chimps and elephants should be considered so they are not killed and brutalized if that means being consistent with the logic.
Well your logic is based on the belief that large brain mammals are the only ones that are self aware/conscious, such as dolphin, whale, monkeys, and elephants which have shown signs of self awareness in some studies like this: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1030183310.htm

Snippet: First Evidence To Show Elephants, Like Humans, Apes And Dolphins, Recognize Themselves In Mirror

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but as I have pointed out in previous posts above, in a later and similar study, other animals show the same:

Self-recognition is found in large primates such as chimpanzees, and recent findings show that dolphins and elephants also have such intelligence. Proving that pigeons also have this ability show that such high intelligence as self-recognition can be seen in various animals, and are not limited to primates and dolphins that have large brains

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In other words your logic to protect a few, select species based on the belief that they are self aware/conscious if flawed, as it is apparent that is not limited to a select, elite few.

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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It's not flawed though, I'm not saying protect whales/dolphins and forget every other animal. Other animals like chimps and elephants should be considered so they are not killed and brutalized if that means being consistent with the logic.

I didnt read all your guys chatter, but all Elephants and Chimps are actually endangered - this one particular type of whale being hunted is actually thriving (low sexual maturity age - 6 and low gestation period - 10 mos. vs. 12 years and 22 months for elephants), but I hardly hear a peep about them.

Those are animals we actually SEE and can interact with. Hell, we dont even know whats all in the ocean. I think their efforts are better suited to other species.

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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Yes, preventing someone from killing an innocent person.

This is a huge pile of bullshit. By this reasoning I should be able to kidnap you and neuter you before you breed, like a stray cat because I believe it to be ethically correct. Stupidity is a major cause of death you know, and the less ignorant, self absorbed people breed, the better.

You are damn lucky that I'm not as interested in forcing my beliefs on others as you are.

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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You are forcing your beliefs by wanting to stop people from ending the whale slaughter.
How so? Please enlighten me on when I forced you to hunt whale. (not saying I believe in hunting whale, but that's the position you seem to want to put me in - so I'll play along) I don't seem to recall that.