• Hi, I am the owner and main administrator of Styleforum. If you find the forum useful and fun, please help support it by buying through the posted links on the forum. Our main, very popular sales thread, where the latest and best sales are listed, are posted HERE

    Purchases made through some of our links earns a commission for the forum and allows us to do the work of maintaining and improving it. Finally, thanks for being a part of this community. We realize that there are many choices today on the internet, and we have all of you to thank for making Styleforum the foremost destination for discussions of menswear.
  • This site contains affiliate links for which Styleforum may be compensated.
  • We would like to welcome House of Huntington as an official Affiliate Vendor. Shop past season Drake's, Nigel Cabourn, Private White V.C. and other menswear luxury brands at exceptional prices below retail. Please visit the Houise of Huntington thread and welcome them to the forum.

  • STYLE. COMMUNITY. GREAT CLOTHING.

    Bored of counting likes on social networks? At Styleforum, you’ll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis.

    Click Here to join Styleforum's thousands of style enthusiasts today!

    Styleforum is supported in part by commission earning affiliate links sitewide. Please support us by using them. You may learn more here.

What does one do with an afternoon off and only one tin of neutral shoe polish?

T4phage

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2003
Messages
5,973
Reaction score
671
the first picture in the thread is self explanatory.
it looks like it had a hard life.
 

fritzl

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
12,266
Reaction score
268
Originally Posted by T4phage
the first picture in the thread is self explanatory.
it looks like it had a hard life.


k.

no pun intended, as i said, i'll ask an expert. fair?
 

fritzl

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
12,266
Reaction score
268
Originally Posted by T4phage
what happened to the leather?

just pmed the leather expert...
smile.gif
 

fritzl

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
12,266
Reaction score
268
...and here's the answer. certainly in our mother tongue.

i'll try to pick out the essential statements without destroying the context and their neutral character:

naja also über ein Foto eine Lederqualität zu beurteilen ist sehr schwierig und meiner Meinung nach nicht richtig - Leder muss man immer angreifen und persönlich betrachten können.

Dass die Fallten eventuell kein gutes Zeichen sind - ja dies ist zum Teil richtig, da die falten davon zeugen, dass die Haut an dieser Stelle schon etwas ausgeleiert ist. Das heißt entweder das tier bereits etwas älter war - kein Kalb mehr, oder zumindest bereits ein Mastkalb oder Kalbine.
Oder/und dass für diesen Teil des Schuhes einfach ein Randstück der Lederhaut verwendet wurde. Diese sind meist auch nicht so straff und haben bereits Fallten oder bilden welche wenn Sie verarbeitet werden.

Das heißt man kann sagen die Lederhaut war evetuell etwas günstiger weil eben kein Milchkalb oder der Schuhmeister wollte "sparen" und auch das randstück noch verarbeiten.

Allerdings wird der Schuh dadurch nicht weniger wiederstandsfähig sein. Es sieht einfach etwas anders aus was in unserer Gesellscahft einfach nicht so erwünscht ist.

Hoffe ich konnte dir weiterhelfen

___________________________________________________________________

hmmh, to judge the quality from a picture is difficult and imho not correct.

that the wrinkles are a bad sign is partial correct. it just shows, that this part has been stressed.

it's not an indicator for the resistance of the said shoe. it just adds a different look, which is not welcomed in our social circles.

hope i could be of help.
___________________________________________________________________
 

T4phage

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2003
Messages
5,973
Reaction score
671
interesting answer fritz.

although it is true that you cannot fully assess the quality of leather from pictures alone, you can glean some information.

you yourself do the same in the cleverley topic saying that poor quality leather creases differently and that the leather looked nice because it built up a patina....

from the op's photo, the leather looks quite 'stressed' or as i said 'had a hard life'.. but op states the shoes are new old stock (10yrs). it also looks 'dry' on the untreated shoe.

the wrinkling reminds me of thin vitello
 

fritzl

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
12,266
Reaction score
268
Originally Posted by T4phage
the wrinkling reminds me of thin vitello

good point

i've handled the shoes myself. the ten years are just an estimation, i think it's less, anyway.

forget the cleverley thing. i gave lm a hard time. that's all... ...i was in the mood.

though, my statement with the different creasing of "cheap" leather stands.

another observation. you can use only the so called "best" parts from a hide or you can use the whole thing. this is independable from the original quality of the hide.

op's shoes are soft like a glove. they are amazing irl.

the polishing thing was an experiment for "operation paprika". no more or less.

with a grain of salt: so everyone, who is up for a black wingtip on a sleek last in size EU 45 should pick the sibling. unfortunately they don't fit me in the width. forget your social borders and treat yourself with an unique masterpiece
bigstar[1].gif
let's hug it out
rimshot.gif
 

Sterling Gillette

Distinguished Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2008
Messages
1,126
Reaction score
40
Originally Posted by T4phage
that is a nice restoration job on the shoe, and polish on the toe is striking.
have you tried using saphir's leather restorer on the upper to try to eliminate the excessive creasing?
i like the peg work on the sole, where did you find the shoe?

As already said, I would have treated the shoe differently if I had had access to the products I am normally using.
The shoe is a NOS pair from hungarian master shoemaker Gyula Kiss, whose shoes fritzl and I offer in the B&S or upon request by PM.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria
Very nice, Sterling.


- B

Thank you, B.

Originally Posted by T4phage
o_O
those were new shoes?? what happened to the leather??

anyway nice pegs

The shoes were new, technically speaking, but lay around in the shoemaker's atelier for years and therefore had to take some stains and dust. You wouldn't want to see the pictures from the cleaning and soaking...

--

As for the wearing and resulting cracks in the polish: I can live with that. I actually like the effect of lighter and darker creases in the shoe being highlighted by a spit shine. I have never understood a half-polished shoe (i.e. only toebox and heel). To me, this always looks unfinished or as if the person who polsihed the shoe was too lazy or incompetent to make the quarters shine as much as the toe (where a high shine is actually very easy to achieve).

BTW, these shoes have a twin pair from the same last, finished as a fulbrogue derby in black calf.
 

T4phage

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2003
Messages
5,973
Reaction score
671
Originally Posted by fritzl
......
another observation. you can use only the so called "best" parts from a hide or you can use the whole thing. this is independable from the original quality of the hide.

op's shoes are soft like a glove. they are amazing irl.

the polishing thing was an experiment for "operation paprika". no more or less.
.....


if the shoes were made of a similar grade leather as the thin vitellos i do not doubt that the shoe will be soft, although i personally would not have chosen that leather for this type of shoe due to its thiness and propensity for creasing. maybe for a moccassin.

i do not understand what you mean by only using the best part of a hide or using the whole hide. are you implying the maker had no choice but to use the entire skin?

Sterling: do you find the wax cracking on the creases? that is one reason why not many spitshine/higloss the entire shoe.
 

fritzl

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
12,266
Reaction score
268
Originally Posted by T4phage
if the shoes were made of a similar grade leather as the thin vitellos i do not doubt that the shoe will be soft, although i personally would not have chosen that leather for this type of shoe due to its thiness and propensity for creasing. maybe for a moccassin.

prolog: when i visited the warehouse of "my" leather expert. wholesale and production since three generations. i tended to fail in what qualifies leather for shoes - rtw or bespoke, doesn't matter in this case.

ok, since english is not my mother tongue, my "schmäh"(wit, is closest) is lost in translation.

the shoe is made of best french calf you can buy for money and best knowledge the austrian hungarian school offers. due this is a siblings pair, during the making process(this is just a guess) mr. kiss realized, the good parts are not enough(see below) for a sibling. so he deceided(another guess) to use the so called stressed parts of the hide on the quarters. got it?

Originally Posted by T4phage
i do not understand what you mean by only using the best part of a hide or using the whole hide. are you implying the maker had no choice but to use the entire skin?

your shirt/suit making knowledge is my shoe passion. i dunno understand most things/terms in tailoring.

a hide is divided in at least into four parts, given from the anatomy of a calf/kalbine(older than one year) and a cow.

all parts are qualified/approved to make a proper pair of shoes. this is also part of the adventurous journey of bespoke.

scenario: you choose from a virgin hide - all set

you are at the atelier and catches a glimpse of a hide. i.e. it's a small piece including imperfections.

ask yourself? are you going for it, or do you pass on it?

from my personal experience, there's nothing worse than a "chance", you didn't get a hold of.
 

T4phage

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2003
Messages
5,973
Reaction score
671
Originally Posted by fritzl
...
the shoe is made of best french calf you can buy for money and best knowledge the austrian hungarian school offers. due this is a siblings pair, during the making process(this is just a guess) mr. kiss realized, the good parts are not enough(see below) for a sibling. so he deceided(another guess) to use the so called stressed parts of the hide on the quarters. got it?


a lot suppositions there fritz; from the quality of the skin to the makeing of the shoe.
but if i follow your reasoning, there were two pairs made from one skin, but due to the way the skin was cut for the first pair, the second pair had to use pieces from the less desirable parts of the hide, is that correct? 2 pairs from one hide


Originally Posted by fritzl
...
a hide is divided in at least into four parts, given from the anatomy of a calf/kalbine(older than one year) and a cow.

all parts are qualified/approved to make a proper pair of shoes. this is also part of the adventurous journey of bespoke.

scenario: you choose from a virgin hide - all set

you are at the atelier and catches a glimpse of a hide. i.e. it's a small piece including imperfections.

ask yourself? are you going for it, or do you pass on it?

from my personal experience, there's nothing worse than a "chance", you didn't get a hold of.


thank you for describing the way the hide is partitioned for making shoes. i know this already. i also know that some parts of the skin are 'better' than other parts.

in your scenario, i would not have opted for the defective piece because the defect will mar the final product that i will be wearing.
 

fritzl

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
12,266
Reaction score
268
Originally Posted by T4phage
a lot suppositions there fritz;

it's fritzl, the l is important and i'm fine...

i'm just not used, that i can have a fair/nice conversation with you.

i have let the part open, which would be your decision. it's still up to you and am sure you have your sources for your orders. fine, fine, fine

my conclusion: people like you and me, who have taken part on various bespoke experiences, don't have to agree about their personal preferences, but have some common feelings about the whole thing.

for the op: sterling found, and i can tell ya, by chance a pair he loves. meanwhile he is participating in "operation paprika" in a way i never thought of and this means a lot to me. perfect match comes to my mind.

let me be honest:

this pair is "way better" than his first pair. so he is on the learning curve, what he really wants.

let me know, what you think about this...
 

Sterling Gillette

Distinguished Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2008
Messages
1,126
Reaction score
40
T4phage, I honestly don't know how or when the second pair of this (obviously connected) order was made. fritzl knows far more about the leathers used by Mr. Kiss than I do. All I can say is that the leather for the shoe in these pictures is neither thin nor brittle "” au contraire: It is buttery smooth, thick and has a lifely texture. What might come across as defective parts could simply be the more natural condition of the hide. If you look closely, you will see the leather is not as sealed as modern leathers would be. I won't go as far as to say that it is impossible to obtain such qualities in leather today, but I imagine one would have to look hard for it.
 

bengal-stripe

Distinguished Member
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
4,621
Reaction score
1,280
I don't want to enter the discussion whether that problems with excessive creasing (which all shoes of Mr Kiss seem to have) is due to poor leather quality, sloppy lasting (not pulled tightly enough) or inadequate storage of the shoes over all those years (too damp, too dry, too hot, whatever). I haven't seen or handled the shoes, so I have no firm opinion one way or the other.

But let me clear up, why the same hide has different qualities of leather within. (fritzl's description is a bit too "˜purple-prosed' for me).

Originally Posted by fritzl
a hide is divided in at least into four parts, given from the anatomy of a calf/kalbine(older than one year) and a cow.

all parts are qualified/approved to make a proper pair of shoes. this is also part of the adventurous journey of bespoke.

scenario: you choose from a virgin hide - all set

you are at the atelier and catches a glimpse of a hide. i.e. it's a small piece including imperfections.

ask yourself? are you going for it, or do you pass on it?

from my personal experience, there's nothing worse than a "chance", you didn't get a hold of.


When you buy hides, all tanneries will supply the same leather in three different qualities, based on the number of flaws within a particular hide. Even the fist quality is not without any flaws, but of course has far less than the third quality. All hides, be they first or third quality, have the same natural characteristics that the leather in certain sections of the animal is better than in other sections.

hide.jpg


The best leather comes from the butt and the very best leather is cut near the spine of the animal. When you go further up into the shoulder, the leather is still firm and strong, but has increasing "˜growth' (stretch marks where the animal grew too quickly, resulting in light long lines within the skin). Once you go higher up into the neck, the leather gets more unpredictable, there might be firm spots sitting next to flabby, loose ones. The same thing applies to the belly, the further out you cut the lesser the leather quality.

It depends on the quality of work you want to produce, how much leather will end up on the "˜clicking' (cutting) room floor. For low-priced work you try to use almost any scrap, for high-priced work, you only go for the very best sections; that means you might get only one or two pairs out of a skin, opposed to four or five. In cheaper work you also try to hide the defects of loose leather texture by gluing a fabric onto the back to give the leather a firmer handle.

It is also important, that a particular pair of shoes has all it's pieces cut from the same skin. That is virtually always the case in bespoke (or one-offs), but not necessarily in large factories, where very often the cutting is done by "˜cookie-cutters'. (You cut all the toe caps out of one hide and all the vamps from another hide, That saves changing the cutting forms all the time.
 

fritzl

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Messages
12,266
Reaction score
268
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe
I don't want to enter the discussion whether that problems with excessive creasing (which all shoes of Mr Kiss seem to have) is due to poor leather quality, sloppy lasting (not pulled tightly enough) or inadequate storage of the shoes over all those years (too damp, too dry, too hot, whatever). I haven't seen or handled the shoes, so I have no firm opinion one way or the other.

you entered. k.

as much i like your theory knowledge, i am glad you provide it to the average joe. thank you for that.
 

Featured Sponsor

How important is full vs half canvas to you for heavier sport jackets?

  • Definitely full canvas only

    Votes: 55 35.5%
  • Half canvas is fine

    Votes: 60 38.7%
  • Really don't care

    Votes: 17 11.0%
  • Depends on fabric

    Votes: 27 17.4%
  • Depends on price

    Votes: 28 18.1%

Forum statistics

Threads
505,161
Messages
10,579,004
Members
223,882
Latest member
anykadaimeni
Top