Sartorial mythbusting

Originally Posted by Cravate_Noire

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i have seen some that are almost similsr ebecaus fashit macines brought endsieg toi ti.ds.
ahhh. ohhh. bahhhhhs. hans expl,oedsedsdes
editr: molzart was a faschon with strings quintess too

I see you made it to this one before the grog wore off

I'm have no idea how much of this Telegraph story on A&S from the end of March is accurate, but I find the following passage to be interesting:

'Mr Sheppard used to say you’re doing a portrait in cloth,’ Hitchcock says of his craft, while marking out pieces for a single-breasted jacket. With the customer’s measurements written out on a chit, he moves quickly, drafting lines with a slim disc of chalk first on to the brown pattern paper and then on to the cloth. He bends forward to trace freehand the curve of 'the famous Anderson & Sheppard lapel’, broad-peaked with a slight natural bend. 'Everything is done by eye,’ he explains, 'which is why it’s very hard to pick up the skill quickly. It’s all experience.’ He then cuts decisively. The whole jacket has taken less than 15 minutes. 'We cut with a certain flair.’

Note: emphasis mine.


- B

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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I'm have no idea how much of this Telegraph story on A&S from the end of March is accurate, but I find the following passage to be interesting:

'Mr Sheppard used to say you're doing a portrait in cloth,' Hitchcock says of his craft, while marking out pieces for a single-breasted jacket. With the customer's measurements written out on a chit, he moves quickly, drafting lines with a slim disc of chalk first on to the brown pattern paper and then on to the cloth. He bends forward to trace freehand the curve of 'the famous Anderson & Sheppard lapel', broad-peaked with a slight natural bend. 'Everything is done by eye,' he explains, 'which is why it's very hard to pick up the skill quickly. It's all experience.' He then cuts decisively. The whole jacket has taken less than 15 minutes. 'We cut with a certain flair.'

Note: emphasis mine.


- B

Would any other cutter take longer in cutting the pattern? i guess the marking of the pattern on the cloth could take some time but I would assume that a cutter who has done this for many years can probably trace a pattern and cut it pretty quickly. I assume that you are emphasizing the 15 minutes as a negative.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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I'm have no idea how much of this Telegraph story on A&S from the end of March is accurate, but I find the following passage to be interesting: 'Mr Sheppard used to say you're doing a portrait in cloth,' Hitchcock says of his craft, while marking out pieces for a single-breasted jacket. With the customer's measurements written out on a chit, he moves quickly, drafting lines with a slim disc of chalk first on to the brown pattern paper and then on to the cloth. He bends forward to trace freehand the curve of 'the famous Anderson & Sheppard lapel', broad-peaked with a slight natural bend. 'Everything is done by eye,' he explains, 'which is why it's very hard to pick up the skill quickly. It's all experience.' He then cuts decisively. The whole jacket has taken less than 15 minutes. 'We cut with a certain flair.' Note: emphasis mine. - B
There's a video posted by siedergott (?) on L.L showing a tailor marking out and cutting a suit. He quick. 15mins doesn't surprise me. Also how accurate does the pattern have to be really?

You don't need to send your shoes to another state or country to have them resoled.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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I'm have no idea how much of this Telegraph story on A&S from the end of March is accurate, but I find the following passage to be interesting:

'Mr Sheppard used to say you’re doing a portrait in cloth,’ Hitchcock says of his craft, while marking out pieces for a single-breasted jacket. With the customer’s measurements written out on a chit, he moves quickly, drafting lines with a slim disc of chalk first on to the brown pattern paper and then on to the cloth. He bends forward to trace freehand the curve of 'the famous Anderson & Sheppard lapel’, broad-peaked with a slight natural bend. 'Everything is done by eye,’ he explains, 'which is why it’s very hard to pick up the skill quickly. It’s all experience.’ He then cuts decisively. The whole jacket has taken less than 15 minutes. 'We cut with a certain flair.’

Note: emphasis mine.


- B

Originally Posted by edmorel

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Would any other cutter take longer in cutting the pattern? i guess the marking of the pattern on the cloth could take some time but I would assume that a cutter who has done this for many years can probably trace a pattern and cut it pretty quickly. I assume that you are emphasizing the 15 minutes as a negative.

I assumed it was meant as a negative as well. And for some perspective:

Originally Posted by jefferyd

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In terms of time to do it, depends on your speed but probably about 20 minutes per buttonhole.

Note: emphasis mine.

Originally Posted by clotheshorse69

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You don't need to send your shoes to another state or country to have them resoled.

exactly.

Originally Posted by Wes Bourne

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I assumed it was meant as a negative as well. And for some perspective:

Note: emphasis mine.

No correlation between the two. Thank you for playing.

Originally Posted by George

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There's a video posted by siedergott (?) on L.L showing a tailor marking out and cutting a suit. He quick. 15mins doesn't surprise me. Also how accurate does the pattern have to be really?

OK, another myth- bespoke must start with a personal, individual pattern.

Some people like to spend hours drafting patterns and being ultra-precise about it. Others, like Mr. Hitchcock, are more freehand. Is either method better? Not really. No drafting system will give a perfect pattern- it will require fitting regardless. On the other extreme, because of the complexity of the female form, when cutting for women, I don't even use a paper pattern, I drape the pattern, which is to say I take a square of muslin, hang it over the mannequin or the client, and pin and cut until the mock-up garment looks the way we want it to. In a sense, my draft consists of a rectangle which takes about 2 seconds to draft but an inordinate amount of time to fit.

So no matter what system is used, or perhaps whether block patterns have been used, it comes down to the fitting skills of the cutter- who cares if an individual pattern has been made if the garment still does not fit at the end, and what if i use a free-hand, or block pattern, or even just a rectangle, was used, if the final results are good? 15 minutes does seem rather fast to me, but perhaps with a lot of freehand it goes faster- so long as enough time and care is used in fitting, it doesn't really matter.

Originally Posted by edmorel

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Would any other cutter take longer in cutting the pattern? i guess the marking of the pattern on the cloth could take some time but I would assume that a cutter who has done this for many years can probably trace a pattern and cut it pretty quickly. I assume that you are emphasizing the 15 minutes as a negative.

Originally Posted by Wes Bourne

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I assumed it was meant as a negative as well.



No, I didn't mean it either as a negative or positive, whatever that might mean in this context.

I was more curious about the speed. The article seems to say that Hitchcock is making the pattern from "measurements written on a chit" and then cutting the entire jacket, all in under fifteen minutes. I guess I had no idea that making the universally-vaunted-as critical bespoke pattern from a list of measurements and then also physically cutting the jacket was a combined under fifteen minute job.

Originally Posted by George

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There's a video posted by siedergott (?) on L.L showing a tailor marking out and cutting a suit. He quick. 15mins doesn't surprise me.

Tailorgod, if you're reading this, post up the vid or link please...would love to see it.

Originally Posted by George

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Also how accurate does the pattern have to be really?

Shhh...don't tell anyone that. You'll ruin things.

Another thing in the article that surprised me was that it claims that A&S only has two coatcutters. That seems like a lot of volume for two guys to handle.


- B

Originally Posted by jefferyd

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No correlation between the two. Thank you for playing. OK, another myth- bespoke must start with a personal, individual pattern. Some people like to spend hours drafting patterns and being ultra-precise about it. Others, like Mr. Hitchcock, are more freehand. Is either method better? Not really. No drafting system will give a perfect pattern- it will require fitting regardless. On the other extreme, because of the complexity of the female form, when cutting for women, I don't even use a paper pattern, I drape the pattern, which is to say I take a square of muslin, hang it over the mannequin or the client, and pin and cut until the mock-up garment looks the way we want it to. In a sense, my draft consists of a rectangle which takes about 2 seconds to draft but an inordinate amount of time to fit. So no matter what system is used, or perhaps whether block patterns have been used, it comes down to the fitting skills of the cutter- who cares if an individual pattern has been made if the garment still does not fit at the end, and what if i use a free-hand, or block pattern, or even just a rectangle, was used, if the final results are good? 15 minutes does seem rather fast to me, but perhaps with a lot of freehand it goes faster- so long as enough time and care is used in fitting, it doesn't really matter.
Finally, I'm glad a tailor has posted this.

Originally Posted by jefferyd

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15 minutes does seem rather fast to me, but perhaps with a lot of freehand it goes faster- so long as enough time and care is used in fitting, it doesn't really matter.

I understand that part, and I've said similar things in other posts. In expensive RTW, the pattern cutting has to be exact to produce the predicted standard result. In an individualized garment, the pattern can afford to be comparitively lax because where it falls behind in initial cut, it can catch up to...and should surpass...the RTW alternative when the garment is fitted.

But that is fit, not style.

I guess that I am puzzling over the things that depend on cut but which are not about fit per se: like a lot of the attributes that we discuss here that distingish one style from another. I never imagined that getting that consistent would be, say, seven minutes total to make up a pattern, precise in terms of fit off the bat or not.

As for the freehand part, I thought that it was Mahon and DeBoise's contentions that this is not how it's done at A&S anymore. The article seems to refute this, unless Hitchcock converted to Rock of Eye more recently.



- B

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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No, I didn't mean it either as a negative or positive, whatever that might mean in this context. I was more curious about the speed. The article seems to say that Hitchcock is making the pattern from "measurements written on a chit" and then cutting the entire jacket, all in under fifteen minutes. I guess I had no idea that making the universally-vaunted-as critical bespoke pattern from a list of measurements and then also physically cutting the jacket was a combined under fifteen minute job. Tailorgod, if you're reading this, post up the vid or link please...would love to see it. Shhh...don't tell anyone that. You'll ruin things. Another thing in the article that surprised me was that it claims that A&S only has two coatcutters. That seems like a lot of volume for two guys to handle. - B
Hitch. has also been a little economical with the truth. He was trained to cut coats by Mahon, his trade was a trouser cutter.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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I understand that part, and I've said similar things in other posts. In expensive RTW, the pattern cutting has to be exact to produce the predicted standard result.

In RTW it can take days to make a proper pattern.

....
But that is fit, not style.

I guess that I am puzzling over the things that depend on cut but which are not about fit per se: like a lot of the attributes that we discuss here that distingish one style from another. I never imagined that getting that consistent would be, say, seven minutes total to make up a pattern, precise in terms of fit off the bat or not.


- B

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I do agree that it seems way fast. However, it is a drape coat which is inherently much easier- it is easier to fit a mitten than a glove. And there could be a certain measure of exaggeration involved.

...

^^ You edited too quickly. You brought up an important point.