Grand Seiko

It takes a very brave man to pay thousands of pounds for a Seiko that is not a Credor.

Originally Posted by emakris

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It takes a very brave man to pay thousands of pounds for a Seiko that is not a Credor.

One does not need to be brave to buy a GS, he just needs to be able to recognize quality.

Originally Posted by emakris

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It takes a very brave man to pay thousands of pounds for a Seiko that is not a Credor.

Originally Posted by flanker2000fr

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One does not need to be brave to buy a GS, he just needs to be able to recognize quality.

Emakris might have a point when talking about resell value. Even though it is very hard to get a feeling of what the resell market is like for GS. Google doesn't help that much..

In terms of quality it has nothing to do with bravery, look around, read some reviews and you'll see that everybody agrees the quality is topnotch.

Originally Posted by Brennus

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Emakris might have a point when talking about resell value. Even though it is very hard to get a feeling of what the resell market is like for GS. Google doesn't help that much...

If you pay the international list price, the resell value for a GS is about 50%. They are hard to resell because they carry the Seiko name on them like a stigma. There are not many people who are prepared to fork out that many $ for something branded Seiko, even if the quality is objectively equal or superior to that of, say, Rolex.

Heving said that, it's fairly easy not to pay list price on a GS:

- either you buy it in Japan if you have the chance to travel there (the local list price is lower than the international one)

- or you google "Grand Seiko" and "Higuchi" or "SeiyaJapan", and you will find competitive price from Japanese dealers who ship internationally. Higuchi, by the way, is capable upon request to quote most GS models even the ones not displayed on his site.

There is a lot of misinformation about Grand Seiko in this thread. First of all, there is little if any hand finishing in a Grand Seiko watch. That does not detract from the refinement of the finish, but it is a completely different look from what you see in highly decorated Swiss movements. The edges of the plates are razor sharp and the embellishments are exceedingly uniform. That has an appeal, but it's not comparable to traditional top-notch Swiss finishing. Second, while they are great, unique watches, they really do not compare to Patek or Lange and the like. Even if one concedes that Grand Seiko finishing is merely different, and not worse per se, there is still no question that its movements aren't nearly as elaborate or elegant in design as what the best Swiss makers achieve. Grand Seiko movements tend to be very utilitarian-looking, with very simple, easy-to-service formats, and very few aesthetic frills. It takes a lot of research and development to make a movement's plates, gears, and springs blend together in an artistic way, while achieving a desired set of functions. Seiko gets a lot of credit for doing so much work in-house (more than any other maker, perhaps), but that does not make their movements comparable to Swiss ones costing multiples more. Third, Grand Seiko's true strength is the thoroughness of its adjustment and regulation process. Each movement--I believe--is adjusted to six positions, as opposed to the usual four or five. I forget the tolerances they allow for precision and accuracy, but they are very low and exceed what is required for COSC's chronometer status in Switzerland. They even supply you with a certificate showing your particular watch's test results. That level of performance transparency is unique. Fourth, Credor is beneath Grand Seiko in Seiko's hierarchy. Grand Seiko is Seiko's top line. The truth is, there really is no Swiss competitor doing what Grand Seiko does, so you can't really say Grand Seiko watches are just outright better than same-price Swiss watches. After all, they start at $3,500 for mechanical models--within striking distance of the base MSRP for IWC and JLC. Is Grand Seiko's time-only 9S54 better than an IWC finished and upgraded ETA ebauche? I don't think there is a clear, objective answer. You should pick a Grand Seiko watch because you like its distinctly Japanese aesthetic and approach to design, and because it is an extremely competent, dependable performer--not because it's a run-away bargain. Here's another way to put things in perspective: it's not like you save a lot on labor by making watches in Japan instead of Switzerland. What would make you think that Seiko is making a Patek-equivalent watches for a fourth of the price?

Apart from Credor not being the top of the Seiko line, Foo nailed it.

Originally Posted by emakris

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Apart from Credor not being the top of the Seiko line, Foo nailed it.

Traditionally, Grand Seiko has been Seiko's top line, whereas Credor covered a wide range of quality levels and emphasized a more contemporary, edgy aesthetic. You are right that there is some re-shuffling going on as many of the high complications and technical innovations Seiko has released in recent years have been exhibited in Credor cases to prop up the brand. However, as a whole, Grand Seiko watches cost quite a bit more--just look at the standard models in each line.

Originally Posted by flanker2000fr

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If you pay the international list price, the resell value for a GS is about 50%. They are hard to resell because they carry the Seiko name on them like a stigma. There are not many people who are prepared to fork out that many $ for something branded Seiko, even if the quality is objectively equal or superior to that of, say, Rolex.

Heving said that, it's fairly easy not to pay list price on a GS:

- either you buy it in Japan if you have the chance to travel there (the local list price is lower than the international one)

- or you google "Grand Seiko" and "Higuchi" or "SeiyaJapan", and you will find competitive price from Japanese dealers who ship internationally. Higuchi, by the way, is capable upon request to quote most GS models even the ones not displayed on his site.

That will depend on the country you are selling to. And I think you underestimate the amount of people internationally who are aware of GS's superior quality and who buy them.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Traditionally, Grand Seiko has been Seiko's top line, whereas Credor covered a wide range of quality levels and emphasized a more contemporary, edgy aesthetic. You are right that there is some re-shuffling going on as many of the high complications and technical innovations Seiko has released in recent years have been exhibited in Credor cases to prop up the brand. However, as a whole, Grand Seiko watches cost quite a bit more--just look at the standard models in each line.

Watch Time had a pretty comprehensive article about the Seiko conglomerate last issue and I recall that these watches were mentioned in it.

Originally Posted by Brennus

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Emakris might have a point when talking about resell value. Even though it is very hard to get a feeling of what the resell market is like for GS.

I can never understand people's obsession with resale value when it comes to things like jewelry and watches.

Presumably you buy an expensive watch because you really like it and want to wear it for many, many years. If you think you are going to get sick of it and pawn it off in a few years, should you really buy it at all? It's like signing a pre nup before you get married -- if you are planning your exit strategy before you finalize a transaction, you have to ask yourself if you should really be entering into the transaction in the first place.

It's not like most watches are really going to go up in value unless you leave the watch locked in a drawer so that it's in the same pristine condition as when you bought it (especially taking inflation into account).

Sorry for the rant. To make a long story short, I love GS and would by one without hesitation, regardless of resale, simply because I would be unlikely to sell it.

Originally Posted by East Oakland

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I can never understand people's obsession with resale value when it comes to things like jewelry and watches.

Presumably you buy an expensive watch because you really like it and want to wear it for many, many years. If you think you are going to get sick of it and pawn it off in a few years, should you really buy it at all? It's like signing a pre nup before you get married -- if you are planning your exit strategy before you finalize a transaction, you have to ask yourself if you should really be entering into the transaction in the first place.

It's not like most watches are really going to go up in value unless you leave the watch locked in a drawer so that it's in the same pristine condition as when you bought it (especially taking inflation into account).

Sorry for the rant. To make a long story short, I love GS and would by one without hesitation, regardless of resale, simply because I would be unlikely to sell it.

+1

Originally Posted by East Oakland

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I can never understand people's obsession with resale value when it comes to things like jewelry and watches.
It doesn't matter so much unless you are a watch collector. Watches are expensive to collect, so very few collectors can afford to hold onto an ever-growing collection. Most seem to keep a stable of several watches and sell ones they get bored with to finance new purchases. That said, I'm skeptical of Grand Seiko succeeding globally. They are expecting MSRP to be between 3,000 and 7,500 euros. You can love Seiko all you want, but nothing will change the fact that high-end watch sales are largely driven by popular perceptions of prestige. For most, the thought of a a $10,000 Seiko is equal parts laugh- and vomit-inducing. The more hurtful truth is this: Grand Seikos are interesting watches, but they are not made of pixie dust and the dreams of happy children. They are most certainly not objectively better than many Swiss watches selling for the same price. I don't see Rolex losing any sales to them.

One could make the case that Grand Seikos are the ultimate snob watch. They are expensive and not particularly flashy unlike Rolex and perhaps the more refined marques such as Patek, V&C, AP, et al.

Originally Posted by LabelKing

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One could make the case that Grand Seikos are the ultimate snob watch. They are expensive and not particularly flashy unlike Rolex and perhaps the more refined marques such as Patek, V&C, AP, et al.

I see what you mean. Well said, I agree.

what's the size of the one on the left? how much?

Originally Posted by Fishball

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Grand Seiko is nice, but other seiko are not bad and much cheaper.

I got the left one for less than 1/10 price of the right, a GS.
And it is more accurate than my Rolex, about +/- 5s/day.