what makes a good shoe and why they cost so much

Originally Posted by srivats

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DWFII, I have a question for you:

What is the advantage (if any) apart from looks in doing a HAF sole (ie double sole tapering to single at the waist)? SF seems to like it a lot but I never got the got the point. I very much prefer wearing double soles and cannot understand the benefits of a sole treatment like the one I described from a construction or a comfort viewpoint.

I'm not DW, but...

If you like a double sole, perhaps because it provides greater cushioning, then the HAF sole provides basically the same benefits at a lighter weight. Note that the sole, whether single or double, does not contact the ground in the waist, so the HAF sole gives all the benefits of a double sole with respect to anything relating to the actual contact of your foot to the ground. The elimination of the extra thickness in the waist reduces the amount of weight in the shoe and, to some, makes for a more elegant appearance.

Originally Posted by srivats

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DWFII, I have a question for you: What is the advantage (if any) apart from looks in doing a HAF sole (ie double sole tapering to single at the waist)? SF seems to like it a lot but I never got the got the point. I very much prefer wearing double soles and cannot understand the benefits of a sole treatment like the one I described from a construction or a comfort viewpoint.
I don't know that there is an advantage, aside from the same ones that accrue to a double sole, other than the aesthetics. Doing a half mid sole would, of course accentuate the difference in thickness between the forepart and the waist and it would leave the heel looking like it was higher than it actually was. Some of the same aesthetics are brought to bear in the case of the beveled waist but in a more refined manner. And possibly, the case could be made that the half double would result in a more flexible shoe as compared to the full double. Both seem clunky to my eye and and an additional weight to carry around that is on some level wholly unnecessary in my opinion. I have heard folks say that their feet are too sensitive to gravel underfoot to get along with just one sole. But I suspect that this impression would be mitigated if the shoe is constructed with a good quality insole and outsole. I am not impressed with the argument that one gets more mileage before needing to repair or replace the outsole. Perhaps it's just an acquired taste...

^ Thanks for the answer ...

I wear double soles because I simply like how they look - for example, on a lonwging derby (with a stormwelt). As I mentioned before, I mostly wear aldens and I like the heft of the double soled cordovan shoes on my feet. I feel quite a bit difference on days when I wear my single soles shoes ...

And possibly, the case could be made that the half double would result in a more flexible shoe as compared to the full double.

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Maybe I am slow today, but I simple don't understand this point ... Can I trouble you to explain this further? Why would a double-to-single more flexible than double-all-over? Is more flexibility in that part of the shoe something we want?

Originally Posted by srivats

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Maybe I am slow today, but I simple don't understand this point ... Can I trouble you to explain this further? Why would a double-to-single more flexible than double-all-over? Is more flexibility in that part of the shoe something we want?
In a sense, the flex area (across the treadline) is smaller on a shoe with little or no insole and a single outsole. And the thinner the outsole the smaller the flex area will be. The converse is also true...the thicker the outsole the wider the flex area will be. The flex area is at its widest with a full double. Initially, at least, the whole outsole must flex to some extent. All this is partially due to the fact that in order to make a shoe these layers must be bonded or affixed to each other. They cannot slide against each other much. So when the outsole on a full double is flexed, it has to conform to a curve. A curve that is wide to the point it almost encompasses the whole outsole. Since the mid-sole is exactly the same length as the outsole and, more importantly, bonded to it, there is no way for the mid-sole to get smaller and larger. Which is what it would have to do to accommodate the flexed outsole--this is but one example of the dreaded orange peel effect. . Sorry if this is a bit opaque. We see it--the OPE--all the time in shoemaking but it's not easy to explain. And it's late here...I'm for bed.

Pardon me DWFII, by chance do you know of companies or individuals here in the US that make custom lasts, and if so would you mind providing their contact information?

Originally Posted by srivats

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Maybe I am slow today, but I simple don't understand this point ... Can I trouble you to explain this further? Why would a double-to-single more flexible than double-all-over? Is more flexibility in that part of the shoe something we want?

imo, the haf is more of a gimmick. the mentioned weight reduction is probably 10 grams, third of an ounze, or so.

the sole on the the kiss shoes you scored lies between single and double, cause its custom and balanced to the heel height. kiss shoes dont have either a metal or wood shank and they work since 70 years, up to 20 for mine, fwiw without complaining or weakness in the shank/waist area.

Originally Posted by Sir James

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Pardon me DWFII, by chance do you know of companies or individuals here in the US that make custom lasts, and if so would you mind providing their contact information?
The only lastmaker that even comes close in the US...as far as I know...is Global Footwear Solutions and I don't know how custom they can, or will, get. They work with foot scanners, which, short of having a last modified or carved by a shoemaker is about the closest you will come to a custom-made last. Parenthetically, their whole mode of operation may change in the near future so if you are serious, you might contact them immediately.

Thanks for that information.

DWFII-

thanks for the info. i learned a lot.

regarding my question about the fiddleback. i've noticed on some GY welted shoes w/fiddleback, the GY thread can be seen going around the front of the shoe, but not along either side of the waist. does this mean the shoe is not sewn on the waist?

there are also ones where the waist area is sewn through the sole appearing like an unchanelled GY or blake welt.

Originally Posted by thizzface

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DWFII- thanks for the info. i learned a lot. regarding my question about the fiddleback. i've noticed on some GY welted shoes w/fiddleback, the GY thread can be seen going around the front of the shoe, but not along either side of the waist. does this mean the shoe is not sewn on the waist? there are also ones where the waist area is sewn through the sole appearing like an unchanelled GY or blake welt.
I haven't seen a fiddleback with exposed stitching...almost seems counter-intuitive. Usually on a fiddleback the waist is also beveled and the inseam is set a bit more under the insole. This results in the stitching being well under the edge of the vamp/insole. It is meant to be hidden. I believe the standard is about five stitches to the inch in the waist...double that or a little more (tighter) in the forepart. Unless the welt itself is channeled you will see the stitching in the forepart.

Originally Posted by thizzface

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.......i've noticed on some GY welted shoes w/fiddleback, the GY thread can be seen going around the front of the shoe, but not along either side of the waist. does this mean the shoe is not sewn on the waist?

In most welted shoes the sole is stitched from (heal) breast-to-breast. Some soles are stitched all the way round (360 degrees). There are other manufacturers,, St Crispin springs to mind, who stitch the sole from ball (of the foot) to ball and fix the waist with wooden pegs.

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Originally Posted by thizzface

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.......there are also ones where the waist area is sewn through the sole appearing like an unchanelled GY or blake welt.

You might be confusing that with Italian shoes in Blake-construction.

Some manufacturers leave the stitching exposed in the waist, then channel it underneath the sole (where it comes in contact with potential wetness of the road).

This example here is Ferragamo:

Originally Posted by DWFII

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Usually on a fiddleback the waist is also beveled and the inseam is set a bit more under the insole. This results in the stitching being well under the edge of the vamp/insole. It is meant to be hidden. I believe the standard is about five stitches to the inch in the waist...double that or a little more (tighter) in the forepart. Unless the welt itself is channeled you will see the stitching in the forepart.

is this case, how is the stitching done from "well under the vamp/insole" is this done from the inside of the shoe, resulting in something more like a side channelled blake stitch?

Originally Posted by thizzface

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is this case, how is the stitching done from "well under the vamp/insole" is this done from the inside of the shoe, resulting in something more like a side channelled blake stitch?
No. I don't fully comprehend how a machine-stitched shoe could have a true fiddleback and beveled waist...at least not in the manner I think it should be done. But I am not familiar with every machine that is used in a factory. A hand-welted shoe with a hand-stitched outsole, on the other hand, is pretty straight forward. A curved awl is used to pierce the welt and the outsole. Because it is curved it can reach under the vamp to hole the welt. From there is it simply a matter of following through to pierce the outsole...emerging in a channel that will later cover the stitching. Additionally, as mentioned, the outsole, in the waist, as well as the welt in the waist are thinned somewhat and when the sewing is completed, they will be burnished such that they cozy up to the vamp and into the arch of the shoe in a way that the forepart is not/cannot be made to do. It is hard to describe to anyone who is not intimately familiar with the nuances of shoe construction. But while there will certainly come a time (if it has not come already) when the sleek, elegant, contrasting "lines" of the beveled waist become passe to some, it is not a technique that is done on more mundane shoes. Even among bespoke makers it is not always done with perfect grace. Leaving the stitches exposed, especially on blake construction displays, in my opinion, an indifference to the consequences of choice. Exposed stitches will wick moisture up into the interior of the shoe even if the exposed stitches are in an somewhat sheltered area--the waist. Besides which it is ugly. And if, for the sake of economy, threads are used that will wick moisture, this will encourage (almost guarantee) rotting of the thread...which is one reason that, once upon a time, shoemakers were very particular about the wax they used to coat their threads and how it was applied.

How many times can your shoes be resoled and what aspect of shoe making would contribute to more resoling??

Originally Posted by entrero

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How many times can your shoes be resoled and what aspect of shoe making would contribute to more resoling??
All things being equal, a hand-welted shoe can be resoled an infinite number of times. In other words, if the shoe is not outrageously mistreated, and the insole is intact and reasonably supple, and the upper is not cracked out there is nothing to prevent resoling...even by a shoe repair shop. But...just as there is rtw and RTW, and bespoke and Bespoke, there is shoe repair and Shoe Repair. Some shops do good work...respecting the lines and shapes of the original shoe...and some are so heavy handed as to literally butcher anything that comes within their purview. While not a direct aspect of shoemaking, the quality of work done by your cobbler probably has as much to do with how many future resolings a shoe can expect than any other factor. Beyond that, the basic techniques of construction are critical. Hand-welted, when done well (or even adequately), is superior to any other method of construction and creates a structure and a platform for resoling that is more stable and more enduring than any other method.