Best Animated Film

Originally Posted by gdl203

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Tokyo Slim to E&C =

to MC
I don't have my own smiley tho. And I'm not short.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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I don't have my own smiley tho. And I'm not short.

I really wish you spent more time in MC so we could have hundreds of pages of TS vs foo. Arguments ad nauseum - no need to even have a topic or an opinion to discuss, both of you seem to usually be able to make it up as you go

Originally Posted by gdl203

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I really wish you spent more time in MC so we could have hundreds of pages of TS vs foo. Arguments ad nauseum - no need to even have a topic or an opinion to discuss, both of you seem to usually be able to make it up as you go

It may seem that way, but I'm actually pretty knowledgeable about film, not just actual movies, but techniques, applications, the production of, financing of, directing and acting of, the creative process, the business process, marketing, distribution, projection, theater operation, and etc. I know nothing about clothes, nor do they interest me to the level that they interest many of you. E&C is where my mind lives 24h a day.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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You are incorrect. There are, as I said, over 20 examples of cell re-use throughout the Jungle book. Practically every time Bagheera turns around and jumps they clone the same motion, they reuse head shots of him about 5 times, They clone nearly every monkey but King Louie, they clone Baloo talking three or four times, The stick throwing/kicking scene, elephants walking, Mowgli running, etc

Sounds like a creative low point to me. Those animators were just as lazy as the ones from Robin Hood. In fact, as I mentioned, they were mostly the same guys.

I never said "lazy" but nice try. What I did say was that they were forced to do the movie on the cheap because of the limited budget and there was a feeling of demoralization in the studio. Yes, many of the same animators worked on these films but they were men with families and it was a particularly ****** time to be out there looking for a decent animation job.

There are probably more shots repeated than I remember. I saw the movie when it came out and over the years, but haven't viewed it in 10 years or so. I would argue that there's a difference between repositioning characters and within a shot to cover groups or reusing shots when you need another and are faced with time deadlines and reusing complete scenes from one movie to another. Like it or not Robin Hood will live in infamy because of this.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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I said I like Movie A, you said " actually that movie is a *************, B movie is way better as well as Movies K-Z. The Animators who made A are lazy ******* marsupials and should be ashamed of themselves, I used to teach animation, you don't know what you are talking about"

Then I went about disassembling your opinion disguised as some kind of fact, pointed out the inconsistencies and factual errors you made, and basically shown that my opinion is at least as valid as yours, if not more so - because I'm judging the movie on the fact that it is far more entertaining to many people (above the age of 12) than any of the modern movies you mentioned, and you are judging the movie based on a lot of false or inconsistent biases that honestly, nobody really cares about.

You have yet to answer any of my points, it kind of makes me doubt you've even seen either of these movies in a long time, and that you unable to "objectively critique" them when you do so.

I don't need to be lectured by a failed animation teacher about why my opinions on animation are bullshit.

Now you're not even trying, slick. I never said any of those things. I called it a "creative failure."

As for failed animation teacher, you're probably right. After a couple of features and series as an Animation Director, a number of international awards for personal films, I got bored with animation and moved onto to live-action. Still love it but mostly as a fan.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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At first glance, yes, Probably because it's drawn by the same guy, but the shape is actually quite different. And if you watch the movies, they don't move anything alike. This is quite possibly the WORST example someone could have given for animation reuse, because they are so clearly NOT the same. And in Robin Hood, Sir Hiss is actually extremely well drawn, and as I said before, his animation is actually quite genius and original. It is very hard to make a snake as expressive as a human being, they don't have limbs. They are a tube with a head on one end. And yet, in Robin Hood, they pull it off. If you watch the opening nine minutes of RH I'll post below, you will see Hiss crawls into a basket, poke his head out, crosses his arms and rest his head on them dejectedly. This is an original, brilliant piece of Animation.

It's quite a nice piece. I never said the film is without merit. Price John sucking his thumb is also great. My reason for posting those shots was more a story issue or lack of.

I'm not sure you understand the fundamentals of being able to bring characters to life. One of the old Disney techniques was to have young animators instill emotion into something inanimate. The most famous is a sack of flour. What you admire in the Sir Hiss scene is fairly easy for a decent animator.

This is a page from Frank and Ollie's, The Illusion of Life. I have a personalized copy if you'd like to borrow it.



And excellent example is Lasseter's Luxo Jr.. (****** copy and the format is off slightly but you get the idea.)

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BTW, if it helps my credibility I was the first person to shake Lasseter's hand after he won his first major animation award for Luxo.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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Lefty is just being a grumpy ***** and will not give the movie a chance, no matter how many qualities it has, because of a few blemishes that most other Disney movies (and to an extent, the vast majority of all animated movies) share. (But he somehow only sees in Robin Hood)

Actually, I'm a grumpy old bastard. My dislike of Robin Hood is more academic. I only saw the movie when it came out and if I were to watch to again I'm sure I would enjoy it for what it is. Oh and thanks for ignoring the whole rotoscoping thing. It took me 20 minutes to find those clips.

lefty

Bloody hell. I type all that out and gdl sums it up in one line. Off to caulk my bathroom.

lefty

Originally Posted by lefty

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As for failed animation teacher, you're probably right. After a couple of features and series as an Animation Director, a number of international awards for personal films, I got bored with animation and moved onto to live-action. Still love it but mostly as a fan.

lefty

Zing!

Originally Posted by lefty

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I never said "lazy" but nice try. What I did say was that they were forced to do the movie on the cheap because of the limited budget and there was a feeling of demoralization in the studio. Yes, many of the same animators worked on these films but they were men with families and it was a particularly ****** time to be out there looking for a decent animation job.
You also said that nobody involved was proud of this movie. Which is a stupid thing to say. This insinuates that everyone involved in this movie is ashamed at the quality of work they did. Poor choice of words on your part? Maybe, or maybe just trying to make it seem worse than it is.

There are probably more shots repeated than I remember. I saw the movie when it came out and over the years, but haven't viewed it in 10 years or so. I would argue that there's a difference between repositioning characters and within a shot to cover groups or reusing shots when you need another and are faced with time deadlines and reusing complete scenes from one movie to another. Like it or not Robin Hood will live in infamy because of this.

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It will live in infamy as an entertaining movie, regardless of your libel. You act as if they cut and pasted the movie together from pieces of older movies with no original content, artwork, or design. That is the stupidest thing ever. If you know animation half as well as you say you do, you realize how stupid a position that is to hold. Robin Hood, while perhaps was not the best thing ever drawn, is a good movie. You denied this based on the fact that it doesn't suit whatever false criteria you have as to how "original" the animation has to be to make a good animated movie. Your position is a sharp knees position, and you should be smart enough to know it.

As for failed animation teacher, you're probably right. After a couple of features and series as an Animation Director, a number of international awards for personal films, I got bored with animation and moved onto to live-action. Still love it but mostly as a fan.

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What do you want, a cookie? You aren't a fan, you are a critic. There's a difference. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but a FAN sees positive as well as negative things.

It's quite a nice piece. I never said the film is without merit.

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Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what you've been saying, actually.

I'm not sure you understand the fundamentals of being able to bring characters to life. One of the old Disney techniques was to have young animators instill emotion into something inanimate. The most famous is a sack of flour. What you admire in the Sir Hiss scene is fairly easy for a decent animator.

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So the Animation in Robin Hood has now escalated to DECENT. Good, I'm getting somewhere.

BTW, if it helps my credibility I was the first person to shake Lasseter's hand after he won his first major animation award for Luxo.

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Congrats, what would help your credibility MORE is if you could keep from backtracking and explaining away your arguments.

Actually, I'm a grumpy old bastard. My dislike of Robin Hood is more academic.

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I'd say it was purely academic.

I only saw the movie when it came out and if I were to watch to again I'm sure I would enjoy it for what it is. Oh and thanks for ignoring the whole rotoscoping thing. It took me 20 minutes to find those clips. lefty

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I'm glad you've wasted your time here. You're welcome.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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You also said that nobody involved was proud of this movie. Which is a stupid thing to say. This insinuates that everyone involved in this movie is ashamed at the quality of work they did. Poor choice of words on your part? Maybe, or maybe just trying to make it seem worse than it is.

Yes. I heard that directly from people who worked on the film. The early '70s were a down period for the animation studio and there was even talk of disbanding it. However, I'm sure that Floyd Huddleston and George Bruns were quite thrilled with their Oscar Nomination for the song Love.

Why not let one of the animation designers speak directly:

Robin Allan writes in his book Walt Disney and Europe that "Ken Anderson wept when he saw how his character concepts had been processed into stereotypes for the animation on Robin Hood."

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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It will live in infamy as an entertaining movie, regardless of your libel. You act as if they cut and pasted the movie together from pieces of older movies with no original content, artwork, or design. That is the stupidest thing ever. If you know animation half as well as you say you do, you realize how stupid a position that is to hold. Robin Hood, while perhaps was not the best thing ever drawn, is a good movie. You denied this based on the fact that it doesn't suit whatever false criteria you have as to how "original" the animation has to be to make a good animated movie. Your position is a sharp knees position, and you should be smart enough to know it.

Here is a rundown of some of the reuse:

As the film allotted a small budget, the artists referenced footage from previous animated features. A dance sequence in the film was traced from a sequence originally produced for Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.[1] This is most noticeable during the song-and-dance number, "The Phony King of England"; the characters' movements strongly resemble those from The Jungle Book, The Aristocats, and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. A notable example is that the section where Little John and Lady Cluck dance together mirrors part of the song "I Wanna Be Like You" from The Jungle Book with Baloo and King Louie respectively. Other examples include Robin Hood and Maid Marian mirroring the dancing movements of Thomas O'Malley and Duchess during the song "Everybody Wants to Be a Cat" from The Aristocats and Maid Marian mirroring the dancing movements of Snow White during the song "The Silly Song" from Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. The animation of Little John, the bear in Robin Hood, is nearly identical to that of Baloo in The Jungle Book. However, Little John more closely resembles a Brown Bear or Grizzly Bear, and Baloo was based on an Indian Sloth Bear. Both characters were voiced by actor Phil Harris, and have similar personalities, though Little John seems a far more responsible character than the "jungle bum" Baloo. Because Maid Marian dances the same moves that Snow White does, she was animated to wear a petticoat instead of bloomers. The robe that Prince John wears, and the crown worn by the puppet version of himself, are the same robe and crown the king wears in Bedknobs and Broomsticks. In addition, Robin Hood's costume (green tunic and feathered cap) is similar to that of 1953's Peter Pan, sometimes leading to confusion between the two characters. At the end of the movie, a sound clip of the church bells ringing in Cinderella was used for the wedding church bells. During the beginning of the film, Sir Hiss mesmerizes Prince John with his eyes. This was the same type of ability Kaa the Indian Python had in Disney's 1967 film, The Jungle Book. This short scene may be another re-use of older animation; Hiss looks similar to Kaa.

At one point, one of the elephants who act as heralds for Prince John attempts to trumpet a warning. Lady Kluck grabs the trunk, preventing the trumpeting and leaving the elephant flapping his ears ineffectually. The same joke was used in The Jungle Book, with identical sound. The vultures in the movie are identical to the ones in The Jungle Book. The movie also reuses the same animated shots several times, including those of the rhinos walking and running and those of Sis and Tagalong Rabbit (Skippy's siblings) and Toby Turtle (his friend, a turtle) laughing. Several animated clips of the Sheriff of Nottingham are also recycled at different points in the film: twice in the film, he says "There's something funny going on around here" in exactly the same tone of voice and with the exact same posture.

You understand that no movie prior to or after was subject to the same amount of reuse?

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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What do you want, a cookie? You aren't a fan, you are a critic. There's a difference. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but a FAN sees positive as well as negative things.

Hang on a second, you insulted me without knowing anything about my animation background. I'm just trying to clear up that while I'm not an expert I'm also not without some chops when it comes to animation and pretty much speak from, you know, actual experience. But yes, I would like a cookie. From the Levain bakery please.

I am a fan and have probably seen more animation than you could possibly name. I've seen the lost Fantasia prints and banned Warner shorts screened in a well known collector's basement, have gone over a print of The Rescuers on a moviola (look it up) to find the two frames that have a topless women inserted in them, sat down with any number of world renowned animated filmmakers to shoot the ****, was interviewed by Maltin while I was screened at a festival and generally spent 20 years as an animation nerd.

So yes, I am a fan and when the lights go down I'm on the film's side.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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So the Animation in Robin Hood has now escalated to DECENT. Good, I'm getting somewhere.

No, some of it is quite nice. I called it a "creative failure" based on the reuse, odd choices for voice work, and the opinion of some of the people who worked on it. My guess is that it doesn't make anyone's top ten list. Possibly yours.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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Congrats, what would help your credibility MORE is if you could keep from backtracking and explaining away your arguments.

I'm not terribly bright when it comes to banging **** out on the interweb and have to forever explain myself. I'm also using a PC. I should probably switch to a mac.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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I'm glad you've wasted your time here. You're welcome.

Too bad, sport, you could have learned a little something about animation technique or history. Like the spontaneous orgy that broke out at the after party for Snow White.

And I'm not talking about this one:



lefty

Tokyo Slim just got pwned!

Originally Posted by lefty

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As for failed animation teacher, you're probably right. After a couple of features and series as an Animation Director, a number of international awards for personal films, I got bored with animation and moved onto to live-action. Still love it but mostly as a fan.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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What do you want, a cookie? You aren't a fan, you are a critic. There's a difference. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but a FAN sees positive as well as negative things.

Originally Posted by lefty

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Hang on a second, you insulted me without knowing anything about my animation background. I'm just trying to clear up that while I'm not an expert I'm also not without some chops when it comes to animation and pretty much speak from, you know, actual experience. But yes, I would like a cookie. From the Levain bakery please.

I am a fan and have probably seen more animation than you could possibly name. I've seen the lost Fantasia prints and banned Warner shorts screened in a well known collector's basement, have gone over a print of The Rescuers on a moviola (look it up) to find the two frames that have a topless women inserted in them, sat down with any number of world renowned animated filmmakers to shoot the ****, was interviewed by Maltin while I was screened at a festival and generally spent 20 years as an animation nerd.

So yes, I am a fan and when the lights go down I'm on the film's side.


Quoted for awesomeness.

Originally Posted by lefty

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Here is a rundown of some of the reuse: As the film allotted a small budget, the artists referenced footage from previous animated features. A dance sequence in the film was traced from a sequence originally produced for Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.[1] This is most noticeable during the song-and-dance number, "The Phony King of England"; the characters' movements strongly resemble those from The Jungle Book, The Aristocats, and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. A notable example is that the section where Little John and Lady Cluck dance together mirrors part of the song "I Wanna Be Like You" from The Jungle Book with Baloo and King Louie respectively. Other examples include Robin Hood and Maid Marian mirroring the dancing movements of Thomas O'Malley and Duchess during the song "Everybody Wants to Be a Cat" from The Aristocats and Maid Marian mirroring the dancing movements of Snow White during the song "The Silly Song" from Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. The animation of Little John, the bear in Robin Hood, is nearly identical to that of Baloo in The Jungle Book. However, Little John more closely resembles a Brown Bear or Grizzly Bear, and Baloo was based on an Indian Sloth Bear. Both characters were voiced by actor Phil Harris, and have similar personalities, though Little John seems a far more responsible character than the "jungle bum" Baloo. Because Maid Marian dances the same moves that Snow White does, she was animated to wear a petticoat instead of bloomers. The robe that Prince John wears, and the crown worn by the puppet version of himself, are the same robe and crown the king wears in Bedknobs and Broomsticks. In addition, Robin Hood's costume (green tunic and feathered cap) is similar to that of 1953's Peter Pan, sometimes leading to confusion between the two characters. At the end of the movie, a sound clip of the church bells ringing in Cinderella was used for the wedding church bells. During the beginning of the film, Sir Hiss mesmerizes Prince John with his eyes. This was the same type of ability Kaa the Indian Python had in Disney's 1967 film, The Jungle Book. This short scene may be another re-use of older animation; Hiss looks similar to Kaa. At one point, one of the elephants who act as heralds for Prince John attempts to trumpet a warning. Lady Kluck grabs the trunk, preventing the trumpeting and leaving the elephant flapping his ears ineffectually. The same joke was used in The Jungle Book, with identical sound. The vultures in the movie are identical to the ones in The Jungle Book. The movie also reuses the same animated shots several times, including those of the rhinos walking and running and those of Sis and Tagalong Rabbit (Skippy's siblings) and Toby Turtle (his friend, a turtle) laughing. Several animated clips of the Sheriff of Nottingham are also recycled at different points in the film: twice in the film, he says "There's something funny going on around here" in exactly the same tone of voice and with the exact same posture. You understand that no movie prior to or after was subject to the same amount of reuse?
But they all did reuse, and continue to reuse, and probably will always reuse, as with nearly all feature length hand drawn animation of the periods before, and after.. The animation is there to tell the story, and as long as it serves the purpose of telling the story, it was not "bad". Arguing a matter of degrees of reuse is stupid and pointless, and yet that is your ultimate point. So your ultimate point is stupid and pointless. And none of what you are saying makes Robin Hood a bad movie, which was the point you are trying so desperately hard to make, and failing. Can you honestly just tell me that you didn't JUST ***** about Disney's version of Robin Hood because the protagonist appears in a green tunic and cap? (The cap is yellow by the way, and Robin Hood is covered with red hair because he's a talking fox, THIS SHOULD ease the confusion between Robin Hood and Peter Pan...) How can anyone not find that ridiculous? That's what Robin Hood wears. You might as well complain about Superman wearing blue, red, and yellow because people might confuse him with Mighty Mouse. I don't "get" why you keep wanting to bash the movie. Are you afraid that because I liked it, someone might go watch it and make up their own mind?

Hang on a second, you insulted me without knowing anything about my animation background. I'm just trying to clear up that while I'm not an expert I'm also not without some chops when it comes to animation and pretty much speak from, you know, actual experience.

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Lets see, you spent several pages harping an opinion I had trying to disprove it's validity. It's a pretty simple and uncomplicated one, and one shared by a great many people, and are now trying to obscure the fact that you are talking out your ass by naming off a whole host of unrelated things, waving your supposed credentials around, and getting mad because I'm sticking up for myself? Get real. . I don't give a **** if you are Walt Disney's cryogenically frozen head IRL, every positive thing I've said in this thread about this subject (of which there was a LOT) was met by your criticism, scorn, and holier-than-thou attitude. Your animation background is irrelevant. If anything, it makes your criticisms worse, since you should KNOW BETTER than what you are saying. Unfortunately I fully believe you that you are some ex-industry hack who clings to his brief moment in the sun, reminiscing about the good old days, and how it all used to be better in the 1940's. I enjoy the fact that you think shaking hands with someone, or knowing someone, or even making a film or two make a difference when it comes to convincing me that my opinions aren't valid. Guess what, Samuel L Jackson touched ****** once. And I was invited into Cypress Hill's tour van to smoke weed with them. And I beat Ice-T at video games. And I've won awards for my poetry. And I've had sex with a lesbian. So IMO my achievements trump yours.

I am a fan and have probably seen more animation than you could possibly name. I've seen the lost Fantasia prints and banned Warner shorts screened in a well known collector's basement, have gone over a print of The Rescuers on a moviola (look it up) to find the two frames that have a topless women inserted in them, sat down with any number of world renowned animated filmmakers to shoot the ****, was interviewed by Maltin while I was screened at a festival and generally spent 20 years as an animation nerd.

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blah blah blah. Well guess what, I invented animation. And film. And electricity. I'm God. I invented the universe that you live in. Prove I'm not. That means I get to tell you that your opinion sucks. ^This is your argument, and it's getting kind of old.

So yes, I am a fan and when the lights go down I'm on the film's side.

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Since when? Are you starting that program soon?

Too bad, sport, you could have learned a little something about animation technique or history. Like the spontaneous orgy that broke out at the after party for Snow White.

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If you'd have said anything new worth knowing in this thread, I'd have said something. FWIW, Ralph Bakshi's rotoscoped movies are a STYLE. Just because something doesn't look like a Disney movie doesn't mean it's bad either. And it's one style I happen to enjoy quite a bit. Maybe somewhere, somebody is talking **** about whatever movies you supposedly made... An American Tail2: Feivel Goes West? That would be serendipity, I suppose. Congrats on all your awards and shaking hands with very important people.

FWIW, I have never in this thread denied that Robin Hood doesn't re-use animation. What I'm denying is that re-used animation automatically make Robin Hood a bad movie. Which you have been trying to unsuccessfully prove for pages now. It is an enjoyable movie DESPITE the fact that SOME of the animation was adapted from previous works. I have no problem with scenes, devices, props, movements, music, ideas, or anything being re-used as long as it's done in an appealing way to tell a different story. Quentin Tarantino's entire career is based off this. You don't appreciate it. Others do. So what?

If quality original animation was the only thing that mattered, Avatar would be a better movie.

I'm getting the impression that your room is a shrine to this movie. Are you reading this while wearing a feathered cap and tights?

I'm picturing this:



Now I would have thought that the Ken Anderson quote about weeping when he saw what they did to the movie he co-wrote and character designed carried some weight, but I guess not. After all, he's just a guy who shook hands with some famous animators once.

I give up, sport. You win.



lefty

Originally Posted by lefty

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I'm getting the impression that your room is a shrine to this movie. Are you reading this while wearing a feathered cap and tights?
I'm glad you've finally dropped the pretense of "educating" me and are now just straight out insulting me as you originally intended to do but were too afraid to try. I feel like we're making real headway here. Out of the dozen or so one sheets in my room, standees, banners, and other personal memorabilia - no I do not have any Robin Hood paraphernalia. Nice try though. If anything, you seem to be the one obsessed with the movie. After all, you started this, not I. I mentioned it in a list of what, 13 other films? Got any criticisms on them you'd like to share? Or was your scathing review of my personal taste limited to just that one film? I'm sure your ballot for TRON as the best animated film has been duly noted by now, so you really have nothing else on your plate. You might as well stick around and play some more.

TS - why are you so angry?

Somehow, I believe that you think that you "won" this argument and that it makes you look cool but you got owned left and right and your disproportionate anger is making you look like a sore loser too... I know it's hard to see from your perspective

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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I'm glad you've finally dropped the pretense of "educating" me and are now just straight out insulting me as you originally intended to do but were too afraid to try. I feel like we're making real headway here. Out of the dozen or so one sheets in my room, standees, banners, and other personal memorabilia - no I do not have any Robin Hood paraphernalia. Nice try though.

If anything, you seem to be the one obsessed with the movie. After all, you started this, not I. I mentioned it in a list of what, 13 other films? Got any criticisms on them you'd like to share? Or was your scathing review of my personal taste limited to just that one film?

I'm sure your ballot for TRON as the best animated film has been duly noted by now, so you really have nothing else on your plate. You might as well stick around and play some more.

Dude . . . I'm not trying to educate you. I'm simply saying that I have some experience with animation and I'm happy to talk a little about those experiences and my observations. Robin Hood is unfortunately one film that will forever be known as a less than shining moment of the Disney studio. And I have an opinion about it.

This thread ceased to be about the "Best Animated Film" on the first page. Probably my fault as I threw out the first list, but I find it kind of hard to narrow it down. Pinocchio if I had to choose.

Tron is a massive failure on many levels, but it is a very important film. Hell . . . Moebius and Syd Mead worked on it. Wendy/Walter Carlos scored it. That's enough to put it on my you-should-watch-this list.

lefty