Best Animated Film

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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I don't get what you are complaining about. The similarities between Hiss and Kaa and Lil John and Baloo, and the fact that like twice in the movie, their motions are the same?

They are different characters, and there are only so many ways to draw a snake. Hiss's actual movement is nothing like Kaa's. Yes, they drew over some old frames from older movies, but they also created lots of new motion.

The voice acting was bizzare how?

I think the songs and music in Robin Hood are better than just about any of the modern Disney movies.

It's actually worse than I remember.

Disney was the pinnacle for classical animation. Working on Robin Hood was an insult to the men and women who over the prior 40 years brought the studio to those heights and frankly demeaning. (Similar to the way that Disney insisted that Tytla rotoscope the sorcerer in Fantasia.) It was a film made by bean counters, not animation artists.

Other than Ustinov the voice work is nowhere near the pinnacle that The Jungle Book was.

There are only so many ways to draw a snake? Wish I knew that when I was teaching animation, I could have saved my students a semester.

I'm glad you like it, but to call it the "best animated film" is an insult to "best" "animated" and "film."

lefty

Originally Posted by lefty

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It's actually worse than I remember. Disney was the pinnacle for classical animation. Working on Robin Hood was an insult to the men and women who over the prior 40 years brought the studio to those heights and frankly demeaning. (Similar to the way that Disney insisted that Tytla rotoscope the sorcerer in Fantasia.) It was a film made by bean counters, not animation artists.
Ok then we disagree, AND you are insulting people you don't know. Good for you. I didn't make it, I just enjoy it. You seem to hate this movie with a deep and unabiding passion. I cannot really change your mind, but there is actually some pretty (imo) brilliant, and if not that, certainly clever original animation in this movie. It is not just cut and paste from other movies, as you seem to want to believe. There is probably less than five minutes of re-used footage in the movie altogether, and unless you watch it back to back with both Snow White and the Jungle Book, you will likely never see it. Disney animators have ALWAYS xeroxed or retraced over cells from other movies, or used the roto from a previous motion to use it again (as with the Maid Marian dance in Robin Hood). Especially if it was their drawing to begin with. Hell, the Jungle Book reused an inordinate amount of cells from itself. The characters repeat their exact actions dozens of times throughout the movie. It's the Disney way. They were a busy company. As for rotoscoping, you realize that nearly all Disney movies AFTER fantasia had roto work, and Fantasia was Disney's third movie, right? Pinnochio, for example, was extremely heavily rotoscoped.

Other than Ustinov the voice work is nowhere near the pinnacle that The Jungle Book was.

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You still have yet to explain to me exactly what you mean by this. I found the voice acting to be slightly idiosyncratic with the mixture of accents, but Brian Bedford, as Robin Hood did a great job. Phil Harris was both Baloo and Lil John, so I'm not sure exactly how you can praise him for essentially playing the same role in Jungle Book as he did when you condemned him in Robin Hood. I also particularly like Roger Miller as Alan A Dale.

There are only so many ways to draw a snake? Wish I knew that when I was teaching animation, I could have saved my students a semester.

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Ok. Let me put it this way, many of the same animators from The Jungle Book, also animated Robin Hood. ALL FOUR directing animators were the same, and three out of seven of the character animators were the same. When the same people draw the same things they drew before, they are likely to draw it similarily. Hiss and Kaa are not identical. As an ex-animation professor, you should note that the shape of Hiss' head differs wildly from Kaa's. Hiss's head is fatter, rounder, and his eyes are not even in the same place. Kaa's are on top of his head, Hiss's are on the front. Take a look at your own picture for reference: A snake is a tube with a head on it. If this was a drawing of a person, you'd be able to tell there was a difference. Get over yourself art-school.

I'm glad you like it, but to call it the "best animated film" is an insult to "best" "animated" and "film." lefty

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Ok, whatever. You preferring **** like Pocahontas personally f'ing offends me. So that make it even. I never called it "THE BEST animated film" I listed it in the middle of a whole bunch of ******* movies that came off the top of my head. (I.E. not technical merit in drawing appreciation, prof) Consider it a "favorite" if you will. It is still, besides all your semi-educated opinion, one of my top 3-5 favorite Disney movies. Disney movies from The Little Mermaid-Today, by and large, can kiss ******. I would say Pinocchio is the best Disney movie, if you have to know, but someone already said it, and I don't really enjoy Disney movies by and large. Especially not these repetitive, dumbed down, aimed at 11 year old girls like yourself movies that have come out in the past decade. So unless you really want to keep assaulting our taste with your droll, repetitive banter, maybe we should move on?

Is someone going to say Avatar?

those snakes look pretty similar...

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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Is someone going to say Avatar?

That would make your day, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Hard2Fit

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Pretty much defined several years of my childhood.
Sad, huh?

I'm also voting for this

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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Ok then we disagree, AND you are insulting people you don't know. Good for you. I didn't make it, I just enjoy it.

Not sure who I'm insulting here: the studio; animators; you? It's a fine piece of entertainment but it was a creative low point. FWIW I knew a few of the old Disney/Warner animators. Pretty sure they felt the same away about the film.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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Disney animators have ALWAYS xeroxed or retraced over cells from other movies, or used the roto from a previous motion to use it again (as with the Maid Marian dance in Robin Hood). Especially if it was their drawing to begin with.

Hell, the Jungle Book reused an inordinate amount of cells from itself. The characters repeat their exact actions dozens of times throughout the movie. It's the Disney way. They were a busy company. As for rotoscoping, you realize that nearly all Disney movies AFTER fantasia had roto work, and Fantasia was Disney's third movie, right? Pinnochio, for example, was extremely heavily rotoscoped.

I believe there were two examples of reuse in The Jungle Book - one of Kaa slinking away beaten up and one of Mowgli walking dejected. Both were probably added due to time constraints. Not the film's better moments.

I don't think you understand what I mean by rotoscoping. Yes, Disney shot a tremendous amount of footage of people dressed as characters, as well as animals and natural elements. They were used as reference and inspiration. Here's a good example of it's use in Pinocchio:

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But they added classical animation techniques of stretch and squash to JC to bring him to life.

Now here is a frame from the master animator Bill Tytla of Stromboli in which you can see the amount of exaggeration necessary to make the character look "real":



From this pencil test:

However, certain studios shot footage and literally traced the images to create the animated sequences: the Fleischer's Gulliver's Travels comes to mind. This creates a somewhat dead looking character lacking the spark that is the true definition of animation: creating the illusion of life in time and space.

Here's the GT trailer in which you can see how dead Gulliver is:

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Possible the worst example of this is Bakshi's Lord of the Rings where he shot the entire movie in live-action and traced it onto cels:

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Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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Phil Harris was both Baloo and Lil John, so I'm not sure exactly how you can praise him for essentially playing the same role in Jungle Book as he did when you condemned him in Robin Hood.

That's the point. But I guess there are only so many ways to voice a bear.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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Ok. Let me put it this way, many of the same animators from The Jungle Book, also animated Robin Hood. ALL FOUR directing animators were the same, and three out of seven of the character animators were the same. When the same people draw the same things they drew before, they are likely to draw it similarily.

Certain guys will have styles and be better than others at different types of character, but few animators enjoy redrawing the same thing again and again. The better ones that I've worked with refuse.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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A snake is a tube with a head on it. If this was a drawing of a person, you'd be able to tell there was a difference. Get over yourself art-school.

I haven't been called "art school" since Frank Thomas called me out in front of a group of international animators for wearing a red beret. Thanks for bringing back the old memories.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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Ok, whatever.

You preferring **** like Pocahontas personally f'ing offends me. So that make it even.

Mistakenly included on that list. Not a great movie.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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I never called it "THE BEST animated film" I listed it in the middle of a whole bunch of ******* movies that came off the top of my head. (I.E. not technical merit in drawing appreciation, prof) Consider it a "favorite" if you will. It is still, besides all your semi-educated opinion, one of my top 3-5 favorite Disney movies. Disney movies from The Little Mermaid-Today, by and large, can kiss ******. I would say Pinocchio is the best Disney movie, if you have to know, but someone already said it, and I don't really enjoy Disney movies by and large. Especially not these repetitive, dumbed down, aimed at 11 year old girls like yourself movies that have come out in the past decade.

So unless you really want to keep assaulting our taste with your droll, repetitive banter, maybe we should move on?

You seem like an angry dude. It's just a cartoon, son.

lefty

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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Strangely enough, up until this thread, I've never even heard of it (that I know of). I'll be checking it out this weekend sometime.

Would love to know what you think. My GF loved the book and did not like the movie. I loved both.

Originally Posted by Dakota rube

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Yes.
Enjoyed it very much.

Actually read the book during my Summer of Mescaline. When the movie came out I was seriously tempted to revisit both.

Sounds like fun.

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

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You preferring **** like Pocahontas personally f'ing offends me. So that make it even.

I didn't like Pocahontas. Really liked Beauty and the Beast though. I saw Aladdin in theaters and thought it was the coolest thing.

Originally Posted by lefty

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I believe there were two examples of reuse in The Jungle Book - one of Kaa slinking away beaten up and one of Mowgli walking dejected. Both were probably added due to time constraints. Not the film's better moments.
You are incorrect. There are, as I said, over 20 examples of cell re-use throughout the Jungle book. Practically every time Bagheera turns around and jumps they clone the same motion, they reuse head shots of him about 5 times, They clone nearly every monkey but King Louie, they clone Baloo talking three or four times, The stick throwing/kicking scene, elephants walking, Mowgli running, etc Sounds like a creative low point to me. Those animators were just as lazy as the ones from Robin Hood. In fact, as I mentioned, they were mostly the same guys.

Pinocchio, classic.
Chicken Run
Fantastic Mr. Fox
Up

Originally Posted by lefty

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You seem like an angry dude. It's just a cartoon, son.
I said I like Movie A, you said " actually that movie is a *************, B movie is way better as well as Movies K-Z. The Animators who made A are lazy ******* marsupials and should be ashamed of themselves, I used to teach animation, you don't know what you are talking about" Then I went about disassembling your opinion disguised as some kind of fact, pointed out the inconsistencies and factual errors you made, and basically shown that my opinion is at least as valid as yours, if not more so - because I'm judging the movie on the fact that it is far more entertaining to many people (above the age of 12) than any of the modern movies you mentioned, and you are judging the movie based on a lot of false or inconsistent biases that honestly, nobody really cares about. You have yet to answer any of my points, it kind of makes me doubt you've even seen either of these movies in a long time, and that you unable to "objectively critique" them when you do so. I don't need to be lectured by a failed animation teacher about why my opinions on animation are bullshit.

Originally Posted by sunror

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those snakes look pretty similar...
At first glance, yes, Probably because it's drawn by the same guy, but the shape is actually quite different. And if you watch the movies, they don't move anything alike. This is quite possibly the WORST example someone could have given for animation reuse, because they are so clearly NOT the same. And in Robin Hood, Sir Hiss is actually extremely well drawn, and as I said before, his animation is actually quite genius and original. It is very hard to make a snake as expressive as a human being, they don't have limbs. They are a tube with a head on one end. And yet, in Robin Hood, they pull it off. If you watch the opening minutes of RH I'll post below, you will see a moment where Hiss crawls into a basket,pokes his head out, crosses his arms and rests his head on them dejectedly. He's a snake. He doesn't have arms. This is an original, brilliant piece of Animation, and a very creative use of a snake's body to convey emotion. Skip ahead to the nine minute mark if you want:
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TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. Lefty is just being a grumpy ***** and will not give the movie a chance, no matter how many qualities it has, because of a few blemishes that most other Disney movies (and to an extent, the vast majority of all animated movies) share. (But he somehow only sees in Robin Hood)

^^Wow. Tokyo remind me never to queston your taste.

^^ That goes for lefty, too.

I would stand no chance.

I just have a lot of time on my hands, because I'm stuck in my house for two days.
I need some arguing to feel like I did something this weekend.

If Lefty had had any valid points, I'd have left him alone. People question my taste all the time.
It all depends on how it's done, I guess. Lefty decided he was going to spew a bunch of nonsense to rebuke me, and I called him on it.

Tokyo Slim to E&C = to MC