New Raphael suit (not mine)

I don't like the waist on that blue suit. The shape is like a wrinkle rather than an hourglass. Maybe it's just the way he's standing, but Andrew's suit doesn't have that problem.

Think it needs a little time to conform to the wearer. My new jackets are always a little off until i've worn them for a couple days.

Originally Posted by niidawg3

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did your friend (or yourself) impose or not impose enough on Raphael to get a better looking suit?
I was there mostly to help guide my friend through the process. I did things like pester him to get a 3-roll-2 configuration, cuffs, pleats, not ask for something too tight, etc. My interactions with Raphael were mostly to educate myself about his thinking, not to sway him one way or another. If I saw something of concern, I said something, but I was never attempting to orchestrate. Put it this way: 95% of the talking I did was with Jon, not Raphael. In my observation, Raphael has very strong stylistic preferences and doesn't like to be budged. As I've said earlier, Aportnoy's suit is more to my personal taste, but I don't see how it is objectively better.

Originally Posted by niidawg3

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for a bespoke number, there are obvious/clear issues with his suit, and it is surprising you claim not to see it (chest, waist suppression, drape of trousers to mention a few).
I'm just not seeing any of this. If only someone else could foof the pic for me.

Originally Posted by teddieriley

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I'm sorry, but some on WAYWT could only hope to look half as good.

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Agreed, 1,000%.

Originally Posted by furo

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If this was a case of extraordinary cloth and pattern, I could see the value. But this guy clearly wanted a standard workhorse suit, so no clue why he'd shell out the $5k for such a purpose.
There are some who believe that bespoke should be reserved for 'special' suits that are, detail-wise, out of the ordinary. I have never subscribed to this point-of-view. Point in fact, I choose to invest the absolute most in staple, workhorse garments. Based on my observations, other forum members who regularly order bespoke feel similarly.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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I'm not seeing the bunching--would you mind being more specific?

Aportnoy's jacket and Jon's appear to be two completely different animals. The differences appear as stylistic as they are technical. I'm not sure if Raphael has changed his approach, or if Aportnoy got him to do something unique for him, but I don't see how either is technically superior to the other.
If I may be so bold as to borrow the foofpen, I believe this is what people (myself included) are seeing when they refer to bunching in the chest and along the sides. For comparison, I offer a suit of mine which I humbly submit has a clean chest and smooth (as opposed to rumpled) waist suppression.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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There are some who believe that bespoke should be reserved for 'special' suits that are, detail-wise, out of the ordinary. I have never subscribed to this point-of-view. Point in fact, I choose to invest the absolute most in staple, workhorse garments. Based on my observations, other forum members who regularly order bespoke feel similarly.
Quite true, this. I have one or two that are out there (see the olive flannel Shattuck suit which, by the way, I had Raphael completely recut and change the pockets on) but the remainder are very much staples in blues, grays and browns. Also, the suit I posted was the first suit that Raph made for me.

Originally Posted by holymadness

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If I may be so bold as to borrow the foofpen, I believe this is what people (myself included) are seeing when they refer to bunching in the chest and along the sides. For comparison, I offer a suit of mine which I humbly submit has a clean chest and smooth (as opposed to rumpled) waist suppression.

Seems a bit tight in the chest, the lapels are bowing out a hair.

Clean lines on the waist,

^^^ I agree that the waist suppression is sharply nipped, as opposed to smoothly curved, but I don't think that is an error. You see it frequently on military-style Savile Row suits.

As for the chest 'bunching': what I see is shaping in the Raphael jacket, and a lack of shaping in yours. Do you see how the jacket sculpts inwards toward Jon's waist? Maybe I am just imagining things, but that is the kind of shaping that I like to see in a bespoke jacket. Mine exhibit a similar effect.

Can you just stick someone's head on this, pretend it's a chan suit and foof away? I don't have the energy to do so. As for the pooling, I stated it was in the lower thigh, and I guess if you don't see it, there's no amount of foofing that will explain it. I don't think you are making an objective analysis of this fit. Given some of the minute fit issues you point out in nearly every suit you see fit to criticize, it's pretty galling that you fail to acknowledge the shortcomings in this suit which others have also pointed out.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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You must not read many of my posts--not that I'd blame you. There is plenty of sub-par bespoke out there, and I frequently criticize it on the forum.

I don't see the problems you are talking about with respect to this particular bespoke suit. All I can say is that under my own analysis, it's pretty damned good. Others might come to different conclusions, but it's hard to evaluate them when the underlying analyses aren't clear. I've taken great pains to indicate what I consider good and bad with as much specificity as possible, making extensive use of Photoshop to further illustrate my points. The trouble is that when many people say something is "boring" or "looks no better than RTW," I have no idea what that really means.

With respect to your particular criticisms, I simply have to disagree. The bunching at the midsection you mention isn't apparent to me. The "pooling" at the legs merely looks like break--even if there is too much, that hardly indicates poor fitting trousers. The most important aspect of trouser fit, to my mind, is the line you get going down the leg. It is a matter of easy adjustment to get the length and break the way you like it, and much harder to achieve the drape and line that both Jon and Aportnoy's trousers have. Similarly, I find it annoying when people fixate on sleeve length as a point of criticism when there are obviously other, more structural problems with the sleeves.

Anyway, we all have different eyes and different preferences. All I can say is that if you look back at my posts and my Get Foofed thread, you'll see that I'm not applying different standards to anything. In accordance with my pre-existing critiques, Jon's Raphael suit is very, very good--particularly for a first order. The vast majority of the RTW suits shown on the forum don't meet the same sort of scrutiny.

As for the 'big picture' advantage of RTW, I don't think it exists. It is just as easy to be distracted by certain appealing details when buying RTW as it is when ordering bespoke. This is evident in what we see here on the forum, and in real life: most RTW isn't just bad in the details, but also overall.

Originally Posted by UnFacconable

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Can you just stick someone's head on this, pretend it's a chan suit and foof away? I don't have the energy to do so. As for the pooling, I stated it was in the lower thigh, and I guess if you don't see it, there's no amount of foofing that will explain it. I don't think you are making an objective analysis of this fit. Given some of the minute fit issues you point out in nearly every suit you see fit to criticize, it's pretty galling that you fail to acknowledge the shortcomings in this suit which others have also pointed out.

+1. Couldnt have said it better.

Originally Posted by aportnoy

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Quite true, this. I have one or two that are out there (see the olive flannel Shattuck suit which, by the way, I had Raphael completely recut and change the pockets on) but the remainder are very much staples in blues, grays and browns.

What??!! You had your Mantoni Neopolitan pockets circumcized?


- B

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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There are some who believe that bespoke should be reserved for 'special' suits that are, detail-wise, out of the ordinary. I have never subscribed to this point-of-view. Point in fact, I choose to invest the absolute most in staple, workhorse garments. Based on my observations, other forum members who regularly order bespoke feel similarly.

I understand what you're saying. But my contention is that a workhorse suit has a purpose: utility

So if you gain that utility through RTW + competent tailoring, why go bespoke?

For the "process??"

I mean I've heard some silly things on this forum, but the argument to drop $5k for partaking in the "process" of creating a utility workhorse suit is just absurd to me.

That's probably just my upbringing getting the best of me, but that's the way I see it.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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^^^ I agree that the waist suppression is sharply nipped, as opposed to smoothly curved, but I don't think that is an error. You see it frequently on military-style Savile Row suits.
I was not aware of this. Though I was mistaken in thinking it was an error, it looks somewhat sloppy to my eyes.

As for the chest 'bunching': what I see is shaping in the Raphael jacket, and a lack of shaping in yours. Do you see how the jacket sculpts inwards toward Jon's waist? Maybe I am just imagining things, but that is the kind of shaping that I like to see in a bespoke jacket. Mine exhibit a similar effect.

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I do see what you're seeing. What I've got on is RTW -- not made for my body. However, the effect you're describing in terms of 'shaping' has been much better realized elsewhere (for example, in vox's suits). Here, the result looks to me like bagginess or sagging just above the buttoning point, with a resulting concavity underneath it. There's too much loose fabric and not enough shape.

Originally Posted by furo

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I understand what you're saying. But my contention is that a workhorse suit has a purpose: utility So if you gain that utility through RTW + competent tailoring, why go bespoke? For the "process??" I mean I've heard some silly things on this forum, but the argument to drop $5k for partaking in the "process" of creating a utility workhorse suit is just absurd to me. That's probably just my upbringing getting the best of me, but that's the way I see it.
If you expect to own it for years and can reasonably afford it, then I dont see any issue with it. Plenty of RTW on this forum in that price range worn in office settings. Average people think i'm totally out of my mind for spending what i do on the suits/jackets I wear to work, its too personal to have a definitive price point assessed for 'work wear'.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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^^^ I agree that the waist suppression is sharply nipped, as opposed to smoothly curved, but I don't think that is an error. You see it frequently on military-style Savile Row suits.

As for the chest 'bunching': what I see is shaping in the Raphael jacket, and a lack of shaping in yours. Do you see how the jacket sculpts inwards toward Jon's waist? Maybe I am just imagining things, but that is the kind of shaping that I like to see in a bespoke jacket. Mine exhibit a similar effect.

Does your soon to be ex-friend know that you have subjected him to all this?

^^^ I agree that the waist suppression is sharply nipped, as opposed to smoothly curved, but I don't think that is an error. You see it frequently on military-style Savile Row suits.

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But there's no (or at least shouldn't be) zig-zag crunching around the nipped waist. But then again we have people here who find it absolutely acceptable that some of their bespoke coats look crunchy around the waist/hips because "the shirt is bunching underneath".