Bespoke: The Beginning of the End

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Fair point, but many such individuals might as well buy RTW.

I think we fundamentally disagree on the "purpose" of bespoke v. RTW.

If you're just interested in getting well-fitting clothes to wear, RTW is the answer. A well-made RTW suit and a competent alterations tailor will yield excellent results. The only way you will be actively dissatisfied is if you are both compulsive and anal-retentive. A tailor once told me a story about a client who insisted on having his pants taken in by an eighth of an inch.

Bespoke isn't really about proper fit -- unless you're a body-builder or something -- it's about participating in the process. It's also about experimentation. Bespoke is about making choices and fit is only one -- or, to be accurate, several -- of those choices. Consider, for example, Manton's bespoke DJ thread. IIRC, there were on the order of 100 posts discussing which of three possible midnight blue fabrics would be preferable. A good time was had by all.

So if you're ever in Hong Kong for a week or so, you will want to give Chan a try. You certainly know enough about fit and styling to get Chan to produce what you want. You can get six One-Jackets to put in rotation with your One-Shoe for the price of one Rubinacci.

Oh, and don't try to "mimic" something. I agree that "Almost Armani" suits, to borrow a phrase, are a losing proposition. But creating something unique that you like is not.

Originally Posted by RSS

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But ... I measure my suits by what I think of them ... not what the population thinks of them. Why would anyone do differently. I take to particular cloths and details because I like them. What someone else thinks is not something I'd consider.

I was responding to your comment that most people would not notice the difference between a finely executed, micro-managed suit and the suit it is meant to mimic.

Originally Posted by RSS

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I would agree with you. But this is something I have done ... I'm not suggesting that others follow my lead. Test/trial coats was not the point of this thread ... the point was ... maybe I can live with less than the best ... and it will be easier than I expected.

To be honest, I find it rather disturbing how many people wrote asking to know the identity of the mystery tailor. I think my post above goes out of the way to say I'm not recommending anyone or anything.

Understood. I was only pointing out the hidden costs.

Originally Posted by S. Able

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I agree that Edwin isn't the most "savile row" tailor/house/yadda (whatever the hell that means), but you shouldn't understate the impact that S.R. has had on his professional development and his body of cutting and tailoring knowledge. He knows what he knows from working for (or under) Edward Sexton and A&S for 14 years. He has benefited as much as anyone from whatever collective knowhow can be absorbed from a strong concentration of cutters and tailors in a small geographic area.

People are always ready, willing and able to bash S.R. and the blunders its tailors and cutters occasionally produce. That being said, I am willing to bet that S.R. comprises 98 percent of whatever bespoke tailoring exists in the world 40 years from now. Unlike certain other pockets of bespoke tailoring (...NYC), S.R. puts forth a very concerted effort to train new cutters and tailors. How many cutter or tailor apprentices do we currently have in the U.S.? Maybe things are better in Australia. My two cents.

Ah...well, I hope it is obvious that I do mean that knowledge and craft that we like to think embodied in Savile Row is not luminously present in Edwin's work...he's my tailor, after all, and I choose him and continue to be his customer because I like him the best.

London tailoring, SR included, continues to be a substantial engine powering the continuation of bespoke tailoring into the 21st century. If it should whither, the detrimental effects of that would extend far beyond the borders of the city.


- B

Originally Posted by Ziss

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You uhm... travel around the world for a year each time you order a suit? What a delightful way to celebrate, albeit time consuming.

No, he means he's willing to wait the time it takes the earth to complete it's orbit of the sun. Put simply, he's willing to wait a year before he receives his tailoring.

Originally Posted by Bounder

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If you're just interested in getting well-fitting clothes to wear, RTW is the answer. A well-made RTW suit and a competent alterations tailor will yield excellent results. The only way you will be actively dissatisfied is if you are both compulsive and anal-retentive. A tailor once told me a story about a client who insisted on having his pants taken in by an eighth of an inch.
If this forum is any indication, RTW that can altered to fit nearly as well as good bespoke is extraordinarily rare. The work that goes into shaping a bespoke jacket just can't be replicated on a mass production scale.

Originally Posted by Bounder

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Bespoke isn't really about proper fit -- unless you're a body-builder or something -- it's about participating in the process. It's also about experimentation. Bespoke is about making choices and fit is only one -- or, to be accurate, several -- of those choices. Consider, for example, Manton's bespoke DJ thread. IIRC, there were on the order of 100 posts discussing which of three possible midnight blue fabrics would be preferable. A good time was had by all.
It's interesting that you raise the issue of Manton's dinner suit. First of all, if he were here, I bet he'd agree that, ultimately, the fabric choice was really at the margins and he probably would have been happy with any number of fabrics. Second, his dinner suit is nearly identical to mine in format and detailing. The truth is, there isn't much to muck around with when getting a suit made. You pick your lapels, your pockets and the number of buttons, but not much else--and even with respect to those choices, orthodoxy often provides very clear stipulations. It is important to have an active dialogue with your tailor, but I don't think the benefit of such a dialogue is being able to inject more and more of your micro-preferences. Rather, it is important to establish a respectful, friendly relationship that encourages the tailor to do his best, most thoughtful work.

RSS - I'm glad you've had a positive experience and I think the best we can all hope for is that we find clothing that fits with some measure of quality attached. I tend to see clothing for things other than its utility - I guess much the same others see wine, cars, etc. I'm willing to pay "up" for things that deliver this intangible value. A&S, for example, was a magical experience for me for I'm sure reasons that would strike others as inane or insane or worse! But so goes free flowing capital.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Consider Vox's MBT suits. They look almost Neapolitan, but a few details give away the game. He's getting a great value, but he still relies on Steed as his main tailor, and I think it's safe to assume, given Vox's stated priorities, that the MBT is fairly convenient for him.

That is a pretty accurate summary. MBTâ„¢ was a opportunistic, sudden, and very much Summer-centric (thus, all the fresco...mostly) build up in two waves. An experiment in whether a hybridized Brooks Brothers/Neopolitan cut would work for me. It can't be done throgh the same source for anyone else, nor do I think it likely that I will have any more pieces either.

But, the experiment was fun and I'm glad to have done it. Some of my thinking about it has found its way in the the latest Steed numbers...not a lot, just a little, since when I'm buying a DeBoise, I want a DeBoise.

At some point, as Foofy alludes, I expect that the MBTâ„¢ stuff will give way to bespoke product from Naples, and that as the year passes, my tailored wardrobe will follow the weather to native lattitudes: Naples in the summer; London in the winter.

We'll see.

The experiment also revived my interest in the old BB cut...for that, the only option might be FNB's tailor .


- B

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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How many Chan suits would I have had to go through to achieve results like what I get from Rubinacci? How many suits would I have to go through, in general, to determine what is good enough to satisfy me? If you have lower quantity requirements, the experimentation necessary to get these answers tends not to be worth your while.

If you went to Chan you'd have to be willing to except a different product.

If you are not prepared to accept this then you would do best to stick with Rubinacci.

Originally Posted by whnay.

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RSS - I'm glad you've had a positive experience and I think the best we can all hope for is that we find clothing that fits with some measure of quality attached. I tend to see clothing for things other than its utility - I guess much the same others see wine, cars, etc. I'm willing to pay "up" for things that deliver this intangible value. A&S, for example, was a magical experience for me for I'm sure reasons that would strike others as inane or insane or worse! But so goes free flowing capital.

+1, clothing is in a large part about intangibles. When I see people who wish they could find a proper replacement for an Hermès Kelly for their wives (same quality but not Hermès or some ****) I see people who don't understand mythology and what buying an Hermès bag is about. Same for mens consuming clothes...

Originally Posted by George

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No, he means he's willing to wait the time it takes the earth to complete it's orbit of the sun. Put simply, he's willing to wait a year before he receives his tailoring.

Yes, that was my elliptical (!) of saying that.

My English tailor travels more frequently to the US than many SR firms, coming to Boston three and sometimes four times annually. Even so, with fittings and so on, it is is six to nine months in most cases for delivery. That's just the way of the world if you live in a provincial backwater like the Hub.

For example, I was measured for my Dege shirts in October but am still awaiting the first. I don't mind...I'm still far enough from death (I hope) to not be in such a rush.

I have plenty of things to wear in the meantime.


- B

Originally Posted by Fuuma

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+1, clothing is in a large part about intangibles. When I see people who wish they could find a proper replacement for an Hermès Kelly for their wives (same quality but not Hermès or some ****) I see people who don't understand mythology and what buying an Hermès bag is about. Same for mens consuming clothes...

When I choose Steed over A&S nine years ago, it was a partially an act of choosing something based on personal preference over mythology. I remember thinking carefully about what type of tailoring I preferred and how I wanted my interaction with a tailor to work. In the end, the grander option lost out to the one that seemed to correspond better to my thinking.

I haven't had a moment of regret since.


- B

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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I was responding to your comment that most people would not notice the difference between a finely executed, micro-managed suit and the suit it is meant to mimic.

It helps when one is correct in his use of person. I do realize that many people use "you" as the third person ... but I've never gotten used to that.

To say that 99.9% of the population will find a suit beautiful is not to say that any one in particular would determine the success of his order by what 99.9% of the population thinks. Rather than saying If that is how you do so and so ... perhaps one might consider saying ... If that is how one does so and so ...

Originally Posted by George

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If you went to Chan you'd have to be willing to except a different product.

If you are not prepared to accept this then you would do best to stick with Rubinacci.

This exactly what I'm doing. My questions were rhetorical.

Originally Posted by Fuuma

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+1, clothing is in a large part about intangibles. When I see people who wish they could find a proper replacement for an Hermès Kelly for their wives (same quality but not Hermès or some ****) I see people who don't understand mythology and what buying an Hermès bag is about. Same for mens consuming clothes...

There is a mythology behind the Hermes Kelly which gives it value to many, but there are a lot of other good reasons to buy the bag. If it were a piece of junk, the mythology would only take it so far.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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Yes, that was my elliptical (!) of saying that.

My English tailor travels more frequently to the US than many SR firms, coming to Boston three and sometimes four times annually. Even so, with fittings and so on, it is is six to nine months in most cases for delivery. That's just the way of the world if you live in a provincial backwater like the Hub.

For example, I was measured for my Dege shirts in October but am still awaiting the first. I don't mind...I'm still far enough from death (I hope) to not be in such a rush.

I have plenty of things to wear in the meantime.


- B

6 - 9 months...!!! It's a good job Mr DeBoise cuts a roomy coat then....

Originally Posted by whnay.

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I'm no longer willing to pay up for them.
Well ... that's melodrama ... I'm not sure I'm there yet. I'm still thinking about it.