Bespoke: The Beginning of the End

TheFoo · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by apropos

Or an experienced micro-manager who knows exactly what he/she wants.
Maybe, but I've yet to see a micro-managed suit that looks as good as the kind of suit it is meant to mimic. Consider Vox's MBT suits. They look almost Neapolitan, but a few details give away the game. He's getting a great value, but he still relies on Steed as his main tailor, and I think it's safe to assume, given Vox's stated priorities, that the MBT is fairly convenient for him. Chan suits and my old Oxxford experiments also demonstrate the limitations of micro-managing. It's not just a matter of knowing what you want: you also have to know how to communicate that to a tailor, account for what you don't know, and get a tailor who can execute your preferences reliably.

TheFoo · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by RSS

The lower priced kick-around suit can also make a lot of sense for those who discover that they haven't the need of ultimate perfection.

Fair point, but many such individuals might as well buy RTW.

blackbowtie · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by mafoofan

It's not just a matter of knowing what you want: you also have to know how to communicate that to a tailor, account for what you don't know, and get a tailor who can execute your preferences reliably.

I'm relatively new to bespoke and I think this sums up my situation perfectly, especially the part about accounting for things you don't know when communicating with the tailor. In this respect, it probably pays to wait until one becomes more informed about sartorial matters before plunging into bespoke.

RSS · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Fair point, but many such individuals might as well buy RTW.
True, unless they like to specify particular details and choose their own cloth. There aren't many RTW options that include a 1-button SB in a tweed of orange with a blue windowpane.

TheFoo · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by blackbowtie

I'm relatively new to bespoke and I think this sums up my situation perfectly, especially the part about accounting for things you don't know when communicating with the tailor. In this respect, it probably pays to wait until one becomes more informed about sartorial matters before plunging into bespoke.

I humbly submit that true enlightenment is achieved when you realize that you will never know enough to do the tailor's job for him. You're ready for bespoke when you know how to pick a tailor, not how to manage him.

Originally Posted by RSS

True, unless they like to specify particular details and choose their own cloth.

Cheap MTM would do the trick ninety-nine percent of the time, I imagine. But then, I'm much less picky about details and cloth than I am about quality and fit.

RSS · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Maybe, but I've yet to see a micro-managed suit that looks as good as the kind of suit it is meant to mimic. Consider Vox's MBT suits. They look almost Neapolitan, but a few details give away the game. He's getting a great value, but he still relies on Steed as his main tailor, and I think it's safe to assume, given Vox's stated priorities, that the MBT is fairly convenient for him. Chan suits and my old Oxxford experiments also demonstrate the limitations of micro-managing.
And to 99.9% of the population ... these suits will be beautiful ... which is really the point of my thread.

And your above post is really all about detail ... correct? Of course ... they are micromanaged details.

RSS · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Cheap MTM would do the trick ninety-nine percent of the time, I imagine. But then, I'm much less picky about details and cloth than I am about quality and fit.
And color.

RSS · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by mafoofan

I humbly submit that true enlightenment is achieved when you realize that you will never know enough to do the tailor's job for him. You're ready for bespoke when you know how to pick a tailor, not how to manage him.
If that's true enlightenment ... that is where I began my journey.

But Foo ... I know what you are saying. And to be honest ... I didn't know how to pick my first tailor ... it was a done deal in that it would be my father's tailor.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Cheap MTM would do the trick ninety-nine percent of the time, I imagine. But then, I'm much less picky about details and cloth than I am about quality and fit.
Cheap might well do the trick.

TheFoo · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by RSS

And to 99.9% of the population ... these suits will be beautiful ... which is really the point of my thread.

And this is really all about detail ... correct?

Well, I suppose if you are measuring the success of your orders by what the population at large will think of them, you are probably right that you don't need a big name tailor with a house style you like. However, in that case, details don't matter much, either. Nobody is going to care if you have patch pockets or peak lapels. Nobody is really going to notice that your tweed is slightly different from what they have at Nordstrom's or J. Press. Honestly, I don't think 99.9% of the population can tell the difference between Rubinacci, Armani, and J. Crew, so long as the fit is reasonably correct.

TheFoo · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by RSS

If that's true enlightenment ... that is where I began my journey.
Even the enlightened are known to stray from time to time. Anyway, ultimately, my point was not that you won't benefit from going your route, but that many would not. You have clearly had the benefit of being able to explore many different tailors--that is very unique and costly to achieve. Even though your new Hong Kong suit is only $800, you paid a lot to get to the point where you know what you're getting and be happy with it. How many Chan suits would I have had to go through to achieve results like what I get from Rubinacci? How many suits would I have to go through, in general, to determine what is good enough to satisfy me? If you have lower quantity requirements, the experimentation necessary to get these answers tends not to be worth your while.

gdl203 · Jan 7, 2010

RSS - thanks for the tip!! I just placed a large order (all my savings actually) with Ying Tai Limited, based on your enthusiastic recommendation.

teddieriley · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by gdl203

RSS - thanks for the tip!! I just placed a large order (all my savings actually) with Ying Tai Limited, based on your enthusiastic recommendation.

Sweet, I just ordered a gross of True Religion jeans from them as well, which I'm going to flip on ebay as authentic.

Ziss · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

I'm pretty much attuned to riding the Earth once around the Sun for each order.

- B

You uhm... travel around the world for a year each time you order a suit? What a delightful way to celebrate, albeit time consuming.

RSS · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Well, I suppose if you are measuring the success of your orders by what the population at large will think of them, you are probably right that you don't need a big name tailor with a house style you like. However, in that case, details don't matter much, either. Nobody is going to care if you have patch pockets or peak lapels. Nobody is really going to notice that your tweed is slightly different from what they have at Nordstrom's or J. Press. Honestly, I don't think 99.9% of the population can tell the difference between Rubinacci, Armani, and J. Crew, so long as the fit is reasonably correct.
But ... I measure my suits by what I think of them ... not what the population thinks of them. Why would anyone do differently. I take to particular cloths and details because I like them. What someone else thinks is not something I'd consider.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Anyway, ultimately, my point was not that you won't benefit from going your route, but that many would not. You have clearly had the benefit of being able to explore many different tailors--that is very unique and costly to achieve. Even though your new Hong Kong suit is only $800, you paid a lot to get to the point where you know what you're getting and be happy with it.

How many Chan suits would I have had to go through to achieve results like what I get from Rubinacci? How many suits would I have to go through, in general, to determine what is good enough to satisfy me? If you have lower quantity requirements, the experimentation necessary to get these answers tends not to be worth your while.
I would agree with you. But this is something I have done ... I'm not suggesting that others follow my lead. Test/trial coats was not the point of this thread ... the point was ... maybe I can live with less than the best ... and it will be easier than I expected.

To be honest, I find it rather disturbing how many people wrote asking to know the identity of the mystery tailor. I think my post above goes out of the way to say I'm not recommending anyone or anything.

RSS · Jan 7, 2010

Originally Posted by gdl203

RSS - thanks for the tip!! I just placed a large order (all my savings actually) with Ying Tai Limited, based on your enthusiastic recommendation.
And the sky is green. Oh my God ... look outside.

Originally Posted by teddieriley

Sweet, I just ordered a gross of True Religion jeans from them as well, which I'm going to flip on ebay as authentic.
But ... I really want to know who sells Fake Religion jeans?

Guys ... I've had people PMing me to know who.

Bespoke: The Beginning of the End

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