The Unbranded Brand Jeans

Originally Posted by riraito

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Whodini, I think that's exactly what he's asking.

If you removed all those markup factors from Japanese denim, wouldn't it significantly decrease the price we pay for them? Hence, the typical $275 jean from Japan reduces in price such that the $280-300 jean from Jean Shop seems overpriced

It was.

Originally Posted by whodini

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I don't think it's that simple to compare one brand to countless others when so many factors are involved like actual cost of materials, worker wages, margins, etc.

Also, the glaring difference on paper between something like KMW and JS is that KMW is MIJ with Japanese denim whereas JS is MIUSA with Japanese denim (ergo, import taxes should be equal.) I don't know what the going wage is in Okayama versus NYC but my wild guess would be that NYC could have a higher cost of living.

It's just not black and white. Brand X might use denim that is more expensive than Jean Shop's while a pair of Jean Shops might take longer to make than Brand X. Brand Y might be trying to work with tighter margins while Jean Shop uses a detail like riri that ends up adding $15+ to the retail price.

So where does that leave JS? Is it a $150 pair hyped up to another $100? Hardly. If you compare it to something along the sub-$200 range it clearly doesn't belong. Would you feel better buying JS if it were retailing at $225? Keep in mind that Acne retails at $225. You can kind of see where I'm going with this.

I can. An interesting topic to ponder though.

1) what are we paying for in a pair of jeans, and 2) how much of what we pay for is invisible, i.e.; markup/labor/cost of business/inflated branding expenses/hype/customer or market perception vs. actually reflected in the product.

I'm happy to pay for the invisible aspect of old-world expertise and craftsmanship. But I hate paying extra for market hype/branding bullsh+t.

I'm immediately turned off by certain marketing schemes. Less because of the celebrity wearing said garment, more because the company paid them a huge amount of $$ for product placement, which I think could be beter spent.

I often feel that JS are sub-par compared to competition in the same price range, but not completely sub-par. I think I'd have no problem paying PBJ or Skull prices (225-245) for them, but close to 300 seems bordeline unreasonable. Especially compared to ***-made brands in the same range. But I'm not sure they're sub-160 jeans either.

But I see nothing about JS on the surface that distinguishes them from APC.

In the end, are we getting what we pay for at this level with SF 'acknowledged' denim brands? And is the perception of value between 200 and 300 realistic or skewed?

Originally Posted by whodini

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Which day is 21 again?


next tues 24th....we'll be there after dinner at Santorini if you wanna meet up around 7ish

Originally Posted by mlyngard

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1) what are we paying for in a pair of jeans, and 2) how much of what we pay for is invisible, i.e.; markup/labor/cost of business/inflated branding expenses/hype/customer or market perception vs. actually reflected in the product.
Million dollar question for any brand.

Originally Posted by mlyngard

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I often feel that JS are sub-par compared to competition in the same price range, but not completely sub-par. I think I'd have no problem paying PBJ or Skull prices (225-245) for them, but close to 300 seems bordeline unreasonable. But I'm not sure they're sub-160 jeans either.
It's dollars and cents but $260 retail (take a look around) looks a lot closer to $245 than $300. So when put in with the rest of the $250-range jeans, what exactly seems unreasonable about the jeans?

Originally Posted by mlyngard

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But I see nothing about JS on the surface that distinguishes them from APC.
I'm not sure if you're kidding or just not that informed. Subjectively, JS denim is more interesting; objectively, it wasn't manufactured in Macau. Little things such as the hardware, zipper, and patch also add up.

Originally Posted by mlyngard

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In the end, are we getting what we pay for at this level with SF 'acknowledged' denim brands? And is the perception of value between 200 and 300 realistic or skewed?
What people look for in jeans isn't universal by any means. There shouldn't be a "are we" in that sentence but rather an "am I" because ultimately you're the one paying for and wearing the jeans.

When I bought a pair of Rag & Bone rb15s was I getting what I paid for at that level ($250+)? I'd say, "yes," because the fit, finish, and denim itself was nothing like anything else available at that price.

People would even argue that the fit alone justifies the cost of Dior. Are they getting what they paid for? Did they get a good value? I don't know how many more times I'll have to say it on this forum but the best pair of jeans you can buy for the price is the one you'll want to wear the most. $245 Skulls or $200 LVCs won't make me as happy as seeing the orange selvage and the feeling of the riri zipper for $260.

All that said, these "unbranded" jeans are for people that don't know better and UO understands this. I'd be hard pressed to believe that someone who owns higher-end brands would be satisfied paying retail for these instead of putting the money towards something better.

Im enjoying this debate and discussion a lot w. Whodini and mlyngard.


Finally an discussion without cursing, and and hissy fits.


+1

Originally Posted by whodini

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All that said, these "unbranded" jeans are for people that don't know better and UO understands this. I'd be hard pressed to believe that someone who owns higher-end brands would be satisfied paying retail for these instead of putting the money towards something better.
I should create a brand of cheap denim and then sit outside of UO and prey on the unguarded hipster wallets

Man, this conversation about pricing and 'value' of higher end jeans is way more interesting than whatever crap UO is selling this season.

Originally Posted by whodini

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Million dollar question for any brand.

It's dollars and cents but $260 retail (take a look around) looks a lot closer to $245 than $300. So when put in with the rest of the $250-range jeans, what exactly seems unreasonable about the jeans?
Subjectively, JS denim is more interesting; objectively, it wasn't manufactured in Macau. Little things such as the hardware, zipper, and patch also add up.


People would even argue that the fit alone justifies the cost of Dior. Are they getting what they paid for? Did they get a good value? I don't know how many more times I'll have to say it on this forum but the best pair of jeans you can buy for the price is the one you'll want to wear the most. $245 Skulls or $200 LVCs won't make me as happy as seeing the orange selvage and the feeling of the riri zipper for $260.

1. I defintely should have been more explicit about the jeans I had in mind. A recent visit to the Jean Shop website now shows the button fly rockers and the 15oz rockers are around $300 now.
As an owner of four JC over the years, I agree, they have character - but those prices made me viscerally balk, where I wouldn't blink an eye to invest that much in other jeans I feel are worthy.

2. I'm on the fence about the specific details with JS, but that may be aestheics more than anything else. Initially, I loved all of it. Now, I find I'm becoming more of a traditionalist who prefers the less-is-more blank-canvas type thing. I know the orange has been debated.

I'm a total sucker for details though. More subtle the better. Especially when it's directly linked to an interpretation of a traditional detail, or a functional detail made better.

JS does put thought into those too. But if simplicity in interpretation is my priority, I don't see enough difference in the details between JS and APC to justify a $100-$150 price difference. Nor have I seen any real proof that APC denim is lesser quality, Macau or not.

3. Value: ahh... the elusive quarry, like the quest for 'quality' in 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintanance'. I.e. - it's all in the eye of the beholder. I think your last phrase is absolutely brilliant in it's point. That is the end goal.

My denim addiction is totally based on finding that elusive element in jeans - and it's totally subjective. I've found as many of those qualities in $150 jeans as I have in $350. I'm still hunting for the 'perfect' ones, though. if they exist.

Originally Posted by whodini

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All that said, these "unbranded" jeans are for people that don't know better and UO understands this. I'd be hard pressed to believe that someone who owns higher-end brands would be satisfied paying retail for these instead of putting the money towards something better.

I do honestly think I'd be ashamed to be on the design team at UO. Makes me realize that some people still trade their values quickly for a questionably 'secure', 'fun' job.

Interesting thread

Originally Posted by mlyngard

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But if simplicity in interpretation is my priority, I don't see enough difference in the details between JS and APC to justify a $100-$150 price difference. Nor have I seen any real proof that APC denim is lesser quality, Macau or not.
Then that just goes back subjective opinion of "worth." Whether they're valuable to you or not, the details I mentioned cause the jeans to be more expensive.

Personally, and not even in direct comparison to JS, I think APC's denim is cardboard that's not even suitable to wipe my own ass but then people who have registered this year would come out of the woodwork to call me an elitist asshole for saying that.

honestly my issues with jean shops come down to their cuts and vanity sizing. I like their denim, hardware and detailing, and I don't think that their retail price is out of whack with what they are.

I stopped by Urban Outfitters while I was out today to check out these jeans and I actually liked them a lot. I have a pair of Naked and Famous wierd guys and the tapered leg Unbranded jeans fit fairly similar. I wear a 32 in N&F but I would probably go for a 31 with the Unbranded ones. The 32 felt like it would stretch out and be loose pretty fast.

The only real difference I could see with the fit between the two is that the Unbranded jeans were much less stiff than my N&F jeans were when I got them.

For $88CDN its a pretty good deal on a nice pair of jeans. I didnt actually buy them but I am really considering getting a pair soon and beating them up to see how they look as they fade. Im sure they cant be all that terrible.

I think jean shops are slightly over priced for what they are, but I really like the denim and the hardware. I have to agree with who and say that these do not compare to APC and they definitely belong in the $200+ range. I feel like more of the premium brands, Sugar Cane, Iron Heart, etc. are marking their jeans up much less than UO or Gap or J. Crew. As far as we know UO, is probably making their jeans for like 20% of what they are selling them for. Even if Sugar Cane was making their for 20% of the retail, it is still costing them several times what it is costing UO, therefore the result of a better product.

Also, who is right in saying that the perfect pair of jeans is the pair that you are going to wear the most. There really is no jean that is going to be perfect in all aspects like fit, details, denim etc.

I'm on a budget for some nice jeans, would these be better or the Gap selvedge jeans?