Current opinions on Dege/Whittaker bespoke shirts

Originally Posted by binge

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Vox, any particular style of shirt/collar in mind? Such as OCBD?

You rascal.

My first order would standard spread collars, maybe a bit taller than usual for the English, with three button barrel cuffs a la T&A.


- B

Vox, your explanation makes a lot of sense. Fwiw, I had assumed that you visited NYC from time to time for business, perhaps more often than a touring shirtmaker visits your city.

Originally Posted by Manton

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LOL.

Me likey teh English, but I don't get why anyone would get bespoke shirts from them when other options are available at lower cost, better fit, and higher quality.

Good point ^. That was the impression I got from reading this forum, but I didn't say anything because of a lack of firsthand expericence on my part.

1) English shirts are rather tentish. I don't like a tight fit myself, but I like a trimmer shirt than the English make. Charvet is about my ideal for body fit, and Geneva gets very close to that.

2) They seem to me not to try very hard. One sample shirt, some "corrections," and that's it. I almost think that "bespoke" is too generous a term for what they do. I don't see the evidence of pattern manipulation at very many points to individualize fit.

3) Construction is OK, but you certainly would get neater machine sewing from Paris (the city, not the firm) or Geneva (the firm).

If you want bespoke but don't want to come to NY, doesn't Charvet have a storefront in Boston somewhere, or a boutique within a store? And don't you go to Paris for dinner like 20 times a year?

Originally Posted by Manton

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LOL.

Me likey teh English, but I don't get why anyone would get bespoke shirts from them when other options are available at lower cost, better fit, and higher quality.

Huh? Are you saying Paris is overpriced, or that the English are?

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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What's Matuozzo up to these days? And by that, I mean the price.

I honestly have no idea--haven't bought a shirt in a year. I seem to remember something like 600 or 700 euros.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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As for "higher quality," the fabrics are their own thing. But I do wonder about the quality of make not being reliably good. I am not sure, though, if I can think of a shirtmaker accessible to Americans against whom some degree of Internet complaint has not been registered.

I guess I will find out directly myself shortly.

But, getting back to my main question: is anyone using Whittaker now, and if so, would you be willing to share your thoughts on what the Dege shop is putting out today?


- B

I don't recall reading anything bad about Hamilton. Not only are they accessible to Americans, they ARE American!

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Huh? Are you saying Paris is overpriced, or that the English are?
I guess I think they both are, but Paris brings the lulz.

Originally Posted by Manton

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I guess I think they both are, but Paris brings the lulz.

I hope you're wrong. I just recommended Paris to someone. They seemed to be on top of their game. No hand-stitching, but that's par for the course around these parts.

Originally Posted by Wes Bourne

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Vox, your explanation makes a lot of sense. Fwiw, I had assumed that you visited NYC from time to time for business, perhaps more often than a touring shirtmaker visits your city.

I used to visit NYC quite often during the week, but in the past year, almost never. When I'm there, I do not have time for teh trivial pursuits.

Originally Posted by Manton

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1) English shirts are rather tentish. I don't like a tight fit myself, but I like a trimmer shirt than the English make. Charvet is about my ideal for body fit, and Geneva gets very close to that.

2) They seem to me not to try very hard. One sample shirt, some "corrections," and that's it. I almost think that "bespoke" is too generous a term for what they do. I don't see the evidence of pattern manipulation at very many points to individualize fit.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around this...are you saying that if I ask someone like Whittaker for a closer body fit, he will not do it? I'm not doubting you, just reconfirming since as you note, that doesn't sound very individualized (small "i.")

Originally Posted by Manton

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3) Construction is OK, but you certainly would get neater machine sewing from Paris (the city, not the firm) or Geneva (the firm).

My old RTW Charvets that I got at the mother ship had astonishingly good sewing. Built like tanks. So, that I buy, and that is why they are at the top of my list. But then, you stretch my credulity a little bit when you put Geneva on one side, and Paris and the English bespoke makers on the other. I know that you had bad customer service at Paris, but if you're point is that they are in about the same league as few remaining English bespoke makers (what is it now...Whittaker, O'Flynn, Budd and H&H, right, for those that do not farm out their bespoke shirts?), then I'm going to say that I'm not going to worry about the construction of English shirts.

Originally Posted by Manton

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If you want bespoke but don't want to come to NY, doesn't Charvet have a storefront in Boston somewhere, or a boutique within a store?

Nope.

Originally Posted by Manton

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And don't you go to Paris for dinner like 20 times a year?

Back in the day, and very recently, yes. But, I always end a trip not believing that I will go back anytime soon. I'm pleased when events prove me wrong, but it is hard for me mentally to set off on a path where I'm not sure that I can follow through on things...in this case, making all of the visits for the full shebang at Charvet.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Huh? Are you saying Paris is overpriced, or that the English are?

There's this old thread when the pound was up. Now, it is down and the English shirts seem pretty reasonable.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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I honestly have no idea--haven't bought a shirt in a year. I seem to remember something like 600 or 700 euros.

Kabazzy.


- B

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Seems like everyone's prices are up these days. Paris wants $395 for Thomas Mason Silverline and $600 for SIC Tess 120s!

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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I am not sure, though, if I can think of a shirtmaker accessible to Americans against whom some degree of Internet complaint has not been registered.

If you had easy access to LA, we have two good shirtmakers no one's complained about.

Good luck with finding a shirtmaker.

--Andre

Vox, you'll be fine. You usually know exactly what you want, and if it's different, I'm confident you'll be able to communicate it to Dege.

Post a picture and I'm sure everyone will let you know... it should be a quick process.

As a side note - I find it amusing that mafoofan tries (tried?) to slam Kabbaz for his price, but 'his' shirtmaker is now [virtually] the same price. If anything, I'd bet Kabbaz provides about 10x more service. Hell, I purchased 20 buttons from the guy and he made it a pleasant experience.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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I hope you're wrong. I just recommended Paris to someone. They seemed to be on top of their game. No hand-stitching, but that's par for the course around these parts.

You should have talked to me first. Ah, well.

Buffy will be along and explain why my bad experiece A) was all my fault and B) never happened. He will also insist that the fairy tale he peddles is not about me, because never posts about me.

FWIW, several of the things that happened to me have happened to other members. They have posted about them.

Originally Posted by Wes Bourne

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I don't recall reading anything bad about Hamilton. Not only are they accessible to Americans, they ARE American!

True, but they don't visit Boston, and I have never been in Houston.

Originally Posted by A Y

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If you had easy access to LA, we have two good shirtmakers no one's complained about.

Good luck with finding a shirtmaker.

--Andre

Thank you, Andre.

The most likely thing that will happen is that I'll order a batch from Whittaker in October, and then a batch from Geneva or Paris in November or December.

Then I can decide which works better for me.


- B

You can ask Whittaker for a trim shirt. Maybe he will deliver one. My guess is he will deliver a full bodied shirt that he believes to be trim, or at least will claim is trim. There is an eye of the beholder issue here. My general experience with English makers of everything is also that they are far more prone to do what they want to do rather than what they are asked to do. Whether this is out of stubborness, laziness of forgetfullness is an open question. Probably all three are working in various combinations.

I also don't like English collars.

Charvet is the best machine sewn shirt their is, next to Kabbaz. Paris (business, not city) and Geneva (ditto) shirts are about the same quality, a notch below Charvet, but better than England. However, Paris fits looser and they have an English attitude toward customer requests and individualization. Ask for whatever you want. You will get what they deliver.

Geneva really does tweak your pattern at every point they (or you) deem necessary and you can see and feel the result. It is absolutely a superior fitting shirt, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by kngrimm

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As a side note - I find it amusing that mafoofan tries (tried?) to slam Kabbaz for his price, but 'his' shirtmaker is now [virtually] the same price. If anything, I'd bet Kabbaz provides about 10x more service. Hell, I purchased 20 buttons from the guy and he made it a pleasant experience.

I never criticized Kabbaz for his price. I criticized him for refusing to explain what he offers for that price that other shirtmakers don't (apparently, his shirts are 'incomparable' and any potential client of his wouldn't talk about 'value').

Why would you bet Kabbaz provides 10x more service? Unless you've dealt with my shirtmaker, I don't see how you could possibly judge that.

Also, part of the context you are leaving out is that Matuozzo's shirts are nearly completely hand-stitched while Kabbaz shirts are completely done by machine, except for the buttonholes. We all know that good hand-stitching is rare and takes a lot of time and labor.

Originally Posted by Manton

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You should have talked to me first. Ah, well.

Buffy will be along and explain why my bad experiece A) was all my fault and B) never happened. He will also insist that the fairy tale he peddles is not about me, because never posts about me.

FWIW, several of the things that happened to me have happened to other members. They have posted about them.

Hmm. I'll take a look. Atam seemed like a very nice, competent guy.

Originally Posted by Manton

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You can ask Whittaker for a trim shirt. Maybe he will deliver one. My guess is he will deliver a full bodied shirt that he believes to be trim, or at least will claim is trim. There is an eye of the beholder issue here. My general experience with English makers of everything is also that they are far more prone to do what they want to do rather than what they are asked to do. Whether this is out of stubborness, laziness of forgetfullness is an open question. Probably all three are working in various combinations.

I also don't like English collars.

Charvet is the best machine sewn shirt their is, next to Kabbaz. Paris (business, not city) and Geneva (ditto) shirts are about the same quality, a notch below Charvet, but better than England. However, Paris fits looser and they have an English attitude toward customer requests and individualization. Ask for whatever you want. You will get what they deliver.

Geneva really does tweak your pattern at every point they (or you) deem necessary and you can see and feel the result. It is absolutely a superior fitting shirt, in my opinion.

Is it only the unit cost that stopped you from continuing on with Kabbaz? I've seen no one doubt his responsiveness to work on fit preferences, and the construction of his shirts seems meticulous.

Of course, he is an Internet lightening rod, and that would be exhausting to anyone whose feet are muddied in it like people who post on forvms.


- B