question for the under 25 set

Originally Posted by philosophe

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It is usually the case that the bullies are troubled kids, in which case the kid bothering your son needs some help, too. I don't think it would be so hard for the school to do its job in this instance. A little extra supervision of the bully should work.

there is another complication - we chose to put our children in a very integrated school. and we live in a district that is very integrated. the school in usual - about 50% upper middle class, about 50% barely making it into middle class. so, in pretty much every class you have half the class with well educated, mostly 2 parent families, often with the mother staying at home. the other half are really struggling to keep their family in the middle class, often it is a huge struggle. many single parents, many parents working long hours.

the other kid falls in that group. I don't think he is a bad kid, he hasn't had the same advantages my kid has. but that doens't mean I want him to distract and bug my kid. I wouldn't mind their being friends, if that worked out. but in the meantime I don't know what the teacher will do - say to his parents "hey, maybe you shouldn't work so many hours and spend more time with your kids and by the way, maybe you should read up a little on child rearing and be better role models for your kids, so that globe doens't have to suggest to his kid to kick your kid in the face"

I took a lot of **** in elementary school. I wish I would have socked some of the kids in the jaw to shut them up.

It is hard to say though, it seems like the kids who did get angry/hit/kick didn't seem to have as many friends as the ones who just laughed it off.

if you can teach your kid to let the bullying roll of his back, atleast until its someone pushing/shoving/hitting him... he'll adjust better i'd think, and not be isolated due to kids being afraid of him.

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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but in the meantime I don't know what the teacher will do - say to his parents "hey, maybe you shouldn't work so many hours and spend more time with your kids and by the way, maybe you should read up a little on child rearing and be better role models for your kids, so that globe doens't have to suggest to his kid to kick your kid in the face"

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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there is another complication - we chose to put our children in a very integrated school. and we live in a district that is very integrated. the school in usual - about 50% upper middle class, about 50% barely making it into middle class. so, in pretty much every class you have half the class with well educated, mostly 2 parent families, often with the mother staying at home. the other half are really struggling to keep their family in the middle class, often it is a huge struggle. many single parents, many parents working long hours.

the other kid falls in that group. I don't think he is a bad kid, he hasn't had the same advantages my kid has. but that doens't mean I want him to distract and bug my kid. I wouldn't mind their being friends, if that worked out. but in the meantime I don't know what the teacher will do - say to his parents "hey, maybe you shouldn't work so many hours and spend more time with your kids and by the way, maybe you should read up a little on child rearing and be better role models for your kids, so that globe doens't have to suggest to his kid to kick your kid in the face"

He doesn't. There can be compromise in violence...

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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there is another complication - we chose to put our children in a very integrated school. and we live in a district that is very integrated. the school in usual - about 50% upper middle class, about 50% barely making it into middle class. so, in pretty much every class you have half the class with well educated, mostly 2 parent families, often with the mother staying at home. the other half are really struggling to keep their family in the middle class, often it is a huge struggle. many single parents, many parents working long hours.

the other kid falls in that group. I don't think he is a bad kid, he hasn't had the same advantages my kid has. but that doens't mean I want him to distract and bug my kid. I wouldn't mind their being friends, if that worked out. but in the meantime I don't know what the teacher will do - say to his parents "hey, maybe you shouldn't work so many hours and spend more time with your kids and by the way, maybe you should read up a little on child rearing and be better role models for your kids, so that globe doens't have to suggest to his kid to kick your kid in the face"

What about calling the teacher and suggesting that s/he monitor the situation with the bully and your son more carefully? Perhaps the obnoxious kid just needs a talking to from an adult and some direction about how to behave in school. Your son needn't go to the teacher directly. A peaceful resolution would be best for everyone, and part of teaching is teaching kids how to act at school.

Hmm, isn't fighting/taunting/tricking all kids to during recess until they're 9-10 anyway? I feel old to learn this isn't the case anymore...

I'm not a violent person at all and certainly not physically imposing and all I did at your son's age was go at it w. other kids cause it was fun and what boys did. Sometimes someone would get slightly hurt and a kid would be called to the director's office or something. Everything was well the next day and after a week no one would remember.

Kids are naturally inclined to throw a punch or two throughout their childhood and don't need encouragement from their parents. It sends the wrong message to instruct your child to hit someone else for any reason.

Originally Posted by briancl

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Kids are naturally inclined to throw a punch or two throughout their childhood and don't need encouragement from their parents. It sends the wrong message to instruct your child to hit someone else for any reason.
That's true, standing up for yourself and hitting seems to be the default with children. Only after years of spirit-breaking does it become the extraordinary.

Originally Posted by philosophe

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What about calling the teacher and suggesting that s/he monitor the situation with the bully and your son more carefully? Perhaps the obnoxious kid just needs a talking to from an adult and some direction about how to behave in school. Your son needn't go to the teacher directly. A peaceful resolution would be best for everyone, and part of teaching is teaching kids how to act at school.

well, that is the first choice of action. we will see how it works. my wife spoke to the gym teacher,who is a friend and who is on the playground during recess. apperently the other boy is a problem for a lot of kids.

Originally Posted by Dedalus

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That's true, standing up for yourself and hitting seems to be the default with children. Only after years of spirit-breaking does it become the extraordinary.

I think that it is becoming less and less common.

I have a family member who teaches elementary here in FL. I don't know how it is in Chicago but here, if there is a fight, its usually an office visit and possible suspension. Generally, these things are only mild and I've very rarely heard of serious fighting going on in their 20+ years of elementary experience.

As for discussing this with the teacher, again, I don't know how things are in Chicago but the teachers in FL are often without their children for good chunks of the day. Traveling around to other class specialties (PE, art, a new program where the elementary kids are treated like middle schoolers and travel to other classrooms to learn different subjects) means that kids go unsupervised by the watch dogs very often. More fights break out in the lunch line and PE than in the afterschool play area because there are always several teachers out there supervising as opposed to one in the PE class and none in the cafeteria.

FWIW, I agree with your advice to your son. We're raising a bunch of pussies in this country and these kids that my family member teaches are a bunch of assholes. Of course, almost all of them come from disadvantaged areas and poor homes, most of them have only one parent who works 2 jobs, and have almost no money to speak of. Parenting is difficult when you're never around to see your kid because you've got to work all the time to pay the bills.

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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well, that is the first choice of action. we will see how it works. my wife spoke to the gym teacher,who is a friend and who is on the playground during recess. apperently the other boy is a problem for a lot of kids.

Obviously the staff needs to take an interest in helping this kid learn how to treat classmates.

Originally Posted by philosophe

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Obviously the staff needs to take an interest in helping this kid learn how to treat classmates.
I'll put money on the fact that the staff is already overwhelmed with all the mindless tasks they're involved in, the mountains of paperwork, and their overwhelming desire to get the **** out of there at the end of the day.

Originally Posted by Rambo

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I'll put money on the fact that the staff is already overwhelmed with all the mindless tasks they're involved in, the mountains of paperwork, and their overwhelming desire to get the **** out of there at the end of the day.

+1

it isn't so bad, and the teachers are all pretty good. but I think the issue of how the class splits is not a minor issue. 40% of the kids in the school get free lunch, 40 or more % are in the top 20 percentile of earners. my son's class probrably has 5 doctorates and a handful of masters in the parents, but also a good chunk of people who are blue collar workers.

so how do you deal with a situation where half the kids are vacationing abroad, do after school activities every day, have two loving parents at home, have hundreds or thousands of books at home, and the other half are starved for parental attention, have few or no books, and not such good cultural background. it isn't easy

I recently picked up Shirley Brice Heath's Ways With Words: Language, Life and Work in Communities and Classrooms, which studies a group of working class white kids and a group of working class black kids. You might find it interesting. John McWhorter mentioned it in a column, so I thought I'd try to read it. http://www.amazon.com/Ways-Words-Com.../dp/0521273196 A a matter of pedagogy, there are ways to design an inclusive, cooperative, and egalitarian classroom.