J. Gordon Holt grows up

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

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Wrong.

Please prove that I'm wrong.

--Andre

Originally Posted by A Y

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Actually, the opposite is true: we can easily measure far more than we can hear. The real problems are either digging the right information out of a mountain of data, or accidentally throwing it away.

--Andre

I think it's some of what you said, and more. We can measure a lot but we don't always know what is important and what isn't, a lack of understanding. We probably also are missing somethings that we should measure.

Originally Posted by For Brutus

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I think it's some of what you said, and more. We can measure a lot but we don't always know what is important and what isn't, a lack of understanding. We probably also are missing somethings that we should measure.
That sounds right to me. The reason we miss some things we should measure is not because we can't measure it, but because of a lack of understanding. --Andre

Originally Posted by For Brutus

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I think it's some of what you said, and more. We can measure a lot but we don't always know what is important and what isn't, a lack of understanding. We probably also are missing somethings that we should measure.

This.

Originally Posted by A Y

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That sounds right to me. The reason we miss some things we should measure is not because we can't measure it, but because of a lack of understanding.

--Andre

True but then at the end of the day we have not fully captured the audio experience. The best approach I believe is a combination of subjective and objective tests.

This is why I agree with Mr Holt. Measurements are important because they can help us understand what is really going on. However, we shouldn't ignore actually using our ears. We may not be able describe in physics terms what we are hearing but we often are rather sensitive to small changes.

Of course the problem with trusting just our hearing is the way we can precieve the same thing differently under different conditions. Our brains can also be tricked. As a visual analogy look at optical illusions. The two lines are the same length but our brian says otherwise. And of course the plasebo affect is real. I was disgusted when I saw a website claiming great things if you used their ceramic speaker wire supports to lift your wires off the ground. These "custom made" ceramic things were nothing more than insulators used on power lines. They likely cost the power company $2-3 each. This site was asking something like $50 or $90 each. Sadly that sort of stuff does give audio a bad name.

Originally Posted by For Brutus

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This is why I agree with Mr Holt. Measurements are important because they can help us understand what is really going on. However, we shouldn't ignore actually using our ears. We may not be able describe in physics terms what we are hearing but we often are rather sensitive to small changes.

Of course the problem with trusting just our hearing is the way we can precieve the same thing differently under different conditions. Our brains can also be tricked. As a visual analogy look at optical illusions. The two lines are the same length but our brian says otherwise. And of course the plasebo affect is real. I was disgusted when I saw a website claiming great things if you used their ceramic speaker wire supports to lift your wires off the ground. These "custom made" ceramic things were nothing more than insulators used on power lines. They likely cost the power company $2-3 each. This site was asking something like $50 or $90 each. Sadly that sort of stuff does give audio a bad name.

Agreed. My friend actually found these insulators at Home Depot for cheap $. Just needed to cut off the wood screw on the bottom.

Originally Posted by For Brutus

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This is why I agree with Mr Holt. Measurements are important because they can help us understand what is really going on. However, we shouldn't ignore actually using our ears. We may not be able describe in physics terms what we are hearing but we often are rather sensitive to small changes.

I agree with this, too. Listening is used to validate measurements, and measurements are used to make sure what you heard is repeatable. Where a lot of audio companies fall down is the rigor with which they apply these two tools.

--Andre

Originally Posted by A Y

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I agree with this, too. Listening is used to validate measurements, and measurements are used to make sure what you heard is repeatable. Where a lot of audio companies fall down is the rigor with which they apply these two tools.

--Andre

I don't disagree with this, however it seems to be getting better with the more established brands like Wilson, Levinson, Revel, ARC, C-J, etc.