The Official MMA thread

Originally Posted by daft

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Please tell me where in my post did I state that mma is more corrupt than boxing? It sure seems like that's how you interpreted it. I feel like you made that comment just so you can say something about my screen name

What I am saying is there is no centralized organziaton in boxing, where an organization gets to dictate everything.

There are several promotional organizations in boxing, just as there are in MMA. UFC is far from the only organization. While the WEC is owned by Zuffa, White has nothing to do with it, unless something has changed very recently. As for corruption, that is how I interpreted your mentioning of Dana White. If I'm wrong I apologize, but you should also be clearer in the future, as White's been charged with corruption and unfairness quite a number of times.

Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser

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I would like to see the Unified Rules legalize knees and soccer kicks to the head of a downed opponent. These additions would (1) allow a striker to punish a wrestler for a failed shoot, thus evening the playing field, which currently favors wrestlers quite heavily, and (2) punish turtling. I don't want to see head stomps legalized as I think they're very dangerous in a cage -- witness the first fight between Frank Mir and Wes Sims.

(I just realized this post is supposed to be in the MMA thread in DTs, but I'll leave it here because it's a general topic.)

I would agree with this. For one, it would prevent the Anderson Silva vs. Thales Leites fiascos as well as mind-numbing lay-and-pray matches. Besides, the concussions generally happen in the brawling part of the match. You can protect your head pretty well from the ground. Or you get up and eat a couple on the way up. Or you learn better sweeps and don't go for double legs so often.

As for wrestlers getting guillotined, this really only happens (these days) to rookies and overly anxious fighters who drive the head in too deep.

Originally Posted by LA Guy

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I would agree with this. For one, it would prevent the Anderson Silva vs. Thales Leites fiascos as well as mind-numbing lay-and-pray matches. Besides, the concussions generally happen in the brawling part of the match. You can protect your head pretty well from the ground. Or you get up and eat a couple on the way up. Or you learn better sweeps and don't go for double legs so often.

As for wrestlers getting guillotined, this really only happens (these days) to rookies and overly anxious fighters who drive the head in too deep.

You're right: concussions do generally happen during brawls, exactly because kicks to downed opponents are outlawed. I'm honestly shocked that you think a kick to the head when an opponent is down -- when the head has nowhere to go -- is not going to lead to concussions. This isn't my conjecture. The rule was instituted in these organizations because of physiological evidence. As for protection on the ground, that is certainly not always the case, and even one kick getting through can cause unbelievable brain and spinal cord damage.

Originally Posted by Teacher

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You're right: concussions do generally happen during brawls, exactly because kicks to downed opponents are outlawed. I'm honestly shocked that you think a kick to the head when an opponent is down -- when the head has nowhere to go -- is not going to lead to concussions. This isn't my conjecture. The rule was instituted in these organizations because of physiological evidence. As for protection on the ground, that is certainly not always the case, and even one kick getting through can cause unbelievable brain and spinal cord damage.

Soccer kicks were allowed under Pride rules (I've actually fought under that old system) and I can't think of anyone who got seriously injured as a result of that. A compromise would be that soccer kicks and stomps could be allowed, on the body and arms and legs, but not the head. That would alleviate fears of concussions, but allow strikers to hit a downed wrestler without having to go to the ground themselves and perhaps playing into the strengths of a good grappler. Right now, the unified rules do favor wrestlers. A striker throws a lazy knee, and next thing you know, you are on your back, getting hammer fisted. This happens far more frequently than the converse (wrestler makes a bad shoot, and gets rockedbya knee).

Originally Posted by LA Guy

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A compromise would be that soccer kicks and stomps could be allowed, on the body and arms and legs, but not the head.
Don't the Unified Rules already allow soccer kicks and stomps to the body?

I agree that soccer kicks sound a lot worse on paper than they are in reality. It's not like fighters are lining up for a free kick a la David Beckham on a defenseless opponent.

Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser

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Don't the Unified Rules already allow soccer kicks and stomps to the body?

I agree that soccer kicks sound a lot worse on paper than they are in reality. It's not like fighters are lining up for a free kick a la David Beckham on a defenseless opponent.

No, you are allowed to kick the legs and arms, but kicks to the body are with a straight leg only, so, essentially, ax kicks only, which are hard to time and connect with. Definitely no stomps at any time, iirc.

Originally Posted by LA Guy

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No, you are allowed to kick the legs and arms, but kicks to the body are with a straight leg only, so, essentially, ax kicks only, which are hard to time and connect with. Definitely no stomps at any time, iirc.
I harbor no illusions that the powers that be will ever legalize soccer kicks to the head, much less stomps, so this seems like a good compromise. I would add that the UFC also needs knees to the head of a downed opponent, and from what I've read, that technique is more likely to be legalized than soccer kicks and stomps. I've never understood why a technique that is perfectly legal when a fighter has both feet on the ground suddenly becomes illegal when one or both knees is on the ground. All this rule creates is stupid debates about whether a fighter's knee was one inch off the ground, thus making the knee legal, or whether a knee legally struck the shoulder or illegally struck the head. If the UFC is concerned about the spectacle of a fighter kneeing the head of a turtling opponent, let it ban knees when a fighter's face is touching the ground.

Originally Posted by LA Guy

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Soccer kicks were allowed under Pride rules (I've actually fought under that old system) and I can't think of anyone who got seriously injured as a result of that. A compromise would be that soccer kicks and stomps could be allowed, on the body and arms and legs, but not the head. That would alleviate fears of concussions, but allow strikers to hit a downed wrestler without having to go to the ground themselves and perhaps playing into the strengths of a good grappler. Right now, the unified rules do favor wrestlers. A striker throws a lazy knee, and next thing you know, you are on your back, getting hammer fisted. This happens far more frequently than the converse (wrestler makes a bad shoot, and gets rockedbya knee).

I could go with that compromise. Still, as a former wrestler and someone who has dabbled in martial arts, I still contend that wrestlers have no unfair advantage. There are areas where wrestlers have the advantage (as in your example), but there are others where wrestlers are at a disadvantage, such as guards, boxing (and its defense), any sort of joint lock defense, etc. Just like a boxer or Tai Kwan Do practitioner who enters the sport, a wrestler must adjust strategy and training quite a bit. In all the years I've watched mma, I've never thought I'd be comfortable in it, as good a wrestler as I was, without some serious, serious changes.

Originally Posted by Teacher

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You're right: concussions do generally happen during brawls, exactly because kicks to downed opponents are outlawed. I'm honestly shocked that you think a kick to the head when an opponent is down -- when the head has nowhere to go -- is not going to lead to concussions. This isn't my conjecture. The rule was instituted in these organizations because of physiological evidence. As for protection on the ground, that is certainly not always the case, and even one kick getting through can cause unbelievable brain and spinal cord damage.

Regarding the safety of the fighters, yes, there is always a risk of concussion, whether from punch, kick, elbow, whether standing or on the ground. However as you pointed out earlier, its the many sustained minor concussions that have shown to be the most damaging later in life (shown on brain scans as small black dots).

Knees to the head of a downed opponent may look savage to viewers, but I think from a stoppage perspective, you would be more likely to get knocked out faster as would a ref be more likely to stop a fight after a fighter takes a few unanswered knees than multiple punches, downward elbows, hammerfists, and the occasional rabbit punch. I'm certainly no sports doctor, but I think this reasoning could be used along the same lines as the arguments supporting the sport of MMA (especially when compared to boxing). The fact that there are more stoppages and far fewer sustained blows to the head over the course of a bout, and therefore, a career.

On another note, what are your picks for the TUF finale tomorrow?

I think Nate Diaz will take one of Joe Stevensons' limbs home with him to Stockton. Deigo Sanchez is a pretty big overdog (like 3 to 1) to take the fight over Clay Guida. I'm predicting Demarques and Ross Pearson (by huge upset KO) will be the ultimate fighters this season.

My favorite quote from tonight's Santos fight:

"The microphones are picking up these....sounds."

Also, don't tell your co-host that you're reading text messages during a fight, he'll act like a dick about it.

tangenitally related to this thread (and damn sure not worth one of its own), curiousity and a pending flight led me to download Bully Beatdown - Jason Miller's tv show.

Worst ******* thing I have ever bothered to watch. Abysmal. Atrocious.

Originally Posted by Slopho

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Also, don't tell your co-host that you're reading text messages during a fight, he'll act like a dick about it.

That was pretty funny. The Gurgel fight was surprising to say the least, he looked better in that fight than he has in a long time. I feel bad for Thompson getting hit in the back of the head so many times. Refs seemed pretty unaccustomed to mma, lots of calls for "action" during clinches against the cage and the grappling portions of the fights.

Originally Posted by Lendo

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That was pretty funny. The Gurgel fight was surprising to say the least, he looked better in that fight than he has in a long time. I feel bad for Thompson getting hit in the back of the head so many times. Refs seemed pretty unaccustomed to mma, lots of calls for "action" during clinches against the cage and the grappling portions of the fights.


Tough luck for Ambulance Chaser...I mean Thompson. Funny he's a lawyer and so is chaser...hmm

Originally Posted by m@T

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tangenitally related to this thread (and damn sure not worth one of its own), curiousity and a pending flight led me to download Bully Beatdown - Jason Miller's tv show.

Worst ******* thing I have ever bothered to watch. Abysmal. Atrocious.

Dude, I ******* LOVE bully beatdown. Such a guilty pleasure.

Was watching K1 yesterday. Where do guys like Bonjasky and Sammy Schultz fit in comparison with the guys at UFC?

Cant compare?