The sport coat

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

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Do you know someone who tells people in real life that they're doing things wrong with regards to clothing? With regards to modernity, I think the first step is to admit that such a look exists, that it is recognized collectively and has appeal. After that, you might make a decision about the location, the place, the crowd, the person, the purpose. The question remains, can you outline a modern outfit for someone without defacing them because of any contempt you might have for the look or the lifestyle? I believe this type of objectivity can enhance your own style. It's a form of sartorial enlightenment.
Sure, but I tend to think that a modern outfit looks better a la Fuuma than it does when it is a modernization of very classic elements. Nevertheless, that is why I suggested the Harrison's millionaire book, because I think that they are extremely successful at modernizing classic patterns, and that they do a lot in that book with blues and grays. I think the "Wilkes Bashford" look fo muted dark colors on top and bottom works out pretty well, and can be done with either a standard dress shirt worn open, or with a tie, or with a cashmere/silk turtleneck. I actually like the way Tom Ford casual looks as well, though it can be tricky to pull off. Really, the best modern classic, at least to me, has to have a slightly sleazy edge, because if it does not, it looks like business casual, which is generally a very bad look.

If any of you think that you look "modern" in your bespoke tailored clothes, you're nuts, unless you are purposefully having your tailor imitate a RTW look or elements promoted or marketed by a current RTW mass market maker.

And please...can we banish the word "hip" back to 1948 when it was actually a hip term?

If you want to look modern, the most successful route is to buy RTW from a contemporary designer. It's not hard to do, Tom Ford notwithstanding.

The gulf between fit and success in achieving modernity is going to be far narrower with a contemporary RTW designer than the gulf between fit and success from a bespoke tailor who knows what he is doing. The latter is like asking Titian to do an all-white painting (well, shades of white...)

There is absolutely no way to escape the retro element of tailored bespoke clothing...and why would you want to? I don't think compromise is terribly stylish no matter how many middle-aged women (i.e., 22+) might stroke your coatsleeves.

The last heyday of bespoke clothing leading the charge of modernity was the West End peacock revolution.

If you want to look modern, or have a modern look, there are many sources to satsify this. The one source that will not is what we commonly think of as a bespoke tailor.


- B

I think there are as many definitions of modern as posters on this thread. By modern, what do we mean exactly? If I had to guess what OP wants, it sounds more like fashionable and contemporary than anything else.

--Andre

Originally Posted by A Y

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I think there are as many definitions of modern as posters on this thread. By modern, what do we mean exactly? If I had to guess what OP wants, it sounds more like fashionable and contemporary than anything else. --Andre
This is an unfortunate, recurring theme with some. When they feel their past choices or tenets challenged, they say "Why dont we just throw it all away?". How else would someone interpret this stubborn refusal to analyze when on this very forum some will spill an infinite amount of ink over the difference between the darkest charcoal wool and "black" because of its color beauty and concrete social signals. One would think such broad brush strokes denying the myriad gradations of "modernity" impossible. No one is suggesting that traditional clothes can't be every bit as beautiful as "modern" ones. Likewise, no one is suggesting that "modern" clothes have to be part of a sci-fi film or some wild "Zoolander" party. Some people love music but are tone deaf. I accept that. Problems arise only when the tone def want to conduct.

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

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There was a time when a given crowd might think you were a down and outer
but things are changing. I think if Thom Browne isnt the only impetus for it, his idea of combining odd shades of the same color between jacket and pants are catching on as part of the modern era. I think you might actually wear navy pants now. The only people you are going to offend are:

1. People who have worked in mens clothing for a long time.
   
2. Maybe some crusty holdovers
   
3. People who read clothes books from the past and apply the rules today without taking into account why they were originally enforced or how the landscape has changed.

In other words, people with a thorough knowledge of the rulebook but zero imagination or genuine style sense..
Navy pants are fine.

Tweed that looks the least out of place in the city (without you having to be too skilled with how you put an outfit together) would probably be a grey/black herringbone. Basically, it will be the negative connotations of others that you are wishing to avoid, and simple patterns which give the overall look of grey will be the least likely to stand out.

Style, particularly color, is very location dependent.

In my mind, city style follows business style (aka grays, charcoals, navies). Country style is aligned with earth tones. As such, I prefer navy to brown pants in the city. The only place navy pants strikes me as workman-like is inside of rural country clubs.

Heavy earth tones (especially when paired) actually seems very out of place to me in cities.

Just some of my own rapidly put together thoughts...

There are probably 3 main differentiators of sport coats to suits appropriate for business.

Firstly: Pattern
Secondly: Type of Fabric used
Thirdly: Details.

Regarding pattern:

Patterns for sport coats are on the whole bolder than would be acceptable for City suitings, but, not always, one notable exception here is the Blazer which is usually a solid.

Regarding fabric:

Fabric types for sport coats may range from rough Thorn proof tweeds to luxurious lambs wool/cashmere/silk fabrics. City suitings tend to be hard finished worsteds. Again there are exceptions. Wool/Cashmere blends and flannels for example.

Regarding details:

There is a lot more scope for unusual details on sports coats, Examples being; patch pockets, throat latches, action backs etc. You would not typically see these on a suit appropriate for business use.

On top of these you have to factor in your own personal taste, what you are comfortable wearing and the situational use of the jacket. For example: A bold patterned tweed, with bellows pockets and an action back may make you the centre of attention in a trendy nightclub in the city, but for all the wrong reasons. Whereas a dark navy coloured Cashmere sportscoat with a subtle herringbone weave, minimally styled would be far more stylish, and appropriate. If you are so inclined you could think about dressing in terms of a Venn diagram. Where in this dressing Venn diagram, no elements are mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by winston

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In other words, people with a thorough knowledge of the rulebook but zero imagination or genuine style sense.. Navy pants are fine.
It's an OCD fora world, I'm just living in it.

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

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I believe this type of objectivity can enhance your own style.

Objectivity is good -- and so is passion. As with all matters of personal taste and expression, most of us are mainly guided by the more powerful feelings.

Some young people object strongly to bright brass blazer buttons. Their contempt for the button is all out of proportion. It is not an objective judgment. This drives them to innovate and create what others, more calm about brass buttons, will see as a modern style.

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

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This is an unfortunate, recurring theme with some. When they feel their past choices or tenets challenged, they say "Why dont we just throw it all away?". How else would someone interpret this stubborn refusal to analyze when on this very forum some will spill an infinite amount of ink over the difference between the darkest charcoal wool and "black" because of its color beauty and concrete social signals. One would think such broad brush strokes denying the myriad gradations of "modernity" impossible.

No one is suggesting that traditional clothes can't be every bit as beautiful as "modern" ones. Likewise, no one is suggesting that "modern" clothes have to be part of a sci-fi film or some wild "Zoolander" party.



Some people love music but are tone deaf. I accept that. Problems arise only when the tone def want to conduct.

Do you want to do a word count comparison of how much you have written about black suits versus how much any other poster(s), individually or together, have written? I'll bet a black suit that your oeuvre is at least three times longer than all the other posts on the topic combined.

Originally Posted by Manton

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Do you want to do a word count comparison of how much you have written about black suits versus how much any other poster(s), individually or together, have written? I'll bet a black suit that your oeuvre is at least three times longer than all the other posts on the topic combined.

That's cheating...dude has some long posts under his belt.

- B

Originally Posted by Dewey

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Objectivity is good -- and so is passion. As with all matters of personal taste and expression, most of us are mainly guided by the more powerful feelings. Some young people object strongly to bright brass blazer buttons. Their contempt for the button is all out of proportion. It is not an objective judgment. This drives them to innovate and create what others, more calm about brass buttons, will see as a modern style.
Looks like a couple of them are being passionately objective for the new year In any case, passion is fine but I see too often when someone feels uncomfortable about a topic which should be discussed, they look to disrupt it and shut it down. Do you call that passion? I call it fear and a desire to control.

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

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Looks like a couple of them are being passionately objective for the new year

In any case, passion is fine but I see too often when someone feels uncomfortable about a topic which should be discussed, they look to disrupt it and shut it down. Do you call that passion? I call it fear and a desire to control.

Carl, let's have that discussion you have been pining for for so many years. I have offered over and over and over and over and over. But you never take me up on it.

Stop being such a coward. Quit the passive aggressive BS. Make a new year's resolution to actually do what you say you so desperately want to do.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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That's cheating...dude has some long posts under his belt.

- B
Which is why it's a bit rich for him to criticize others for loquacity.

Have you ever noticed that everything he criticizes in others is a habit he is almost uniquely guilty of himself? The most perfect case of projection I have ever seen. Psychiatrists would pay him large sums of money to use him as a test subject.

Originally Posted by Manton

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Do you want to do a word count comparison of how much you have written about black suits versus how much any other poster(s), individually or together, have written? I'll bet a black suit that your oeuvre is at least three times longer than all the other posts on the topic combined.

I'm pretty sure I've written a large body of short and biting quips regarding black suits. I'm the black suit Basho to FNB's Proust. Which is highly ironic considering that while I do wear a lot of black non-dressy clothes I only own one black suit and rarely wear it.

If anyone is wondering what a modern look means and don't want to read all this thread just pickup a GQ and look at all the overstyled "in the klassy club having fun with the ladies" international playboy lifestyle ads. To me it's the epitome of not being modern but what do I know?