Let's abolish religion!

Originally Posted by TheGreek

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If you are comparing the ancient Romans with ancient Scandanavians, then you are the marsupialed one. Everything we have today we owe it to the Greco/Romans. Speech, Democracy, Medicine,Law, Christianity, Philosophy, there is just too much too list. The Romans domesticated the world, to them everyone else was a barbarian(war-like, un-hygenic,grunting animals).
Re-read your history, the fall of the Roman empire started when barbaric peoples started to infiltrate everyday Roman society.
I originally answered this thread to get a good discussion going, but its turned to mudslinging and name calling. It seems to me, you didnt want a discussion at all, what you wanted was to state what you believe in, and f**k everyone who doesnt think like you. Like I said before, typical.

If you cannot see that Romans were every bit as diabolical as the Norsemen then there is no helping you. They essentially did the same thing that the Vikings did, except over a longer period of time and over a greater amount of territory. Romans spread terror everywhere they went, and were every bit as draconian as the Scandinavians. Kindly remember what Romans did to Christians.

Point is, look at the world now. Religion doesn't need to be part of the equation.

Originally Posted by SField

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That's hilarious considering that some of the countries with the best health care systems, schools, infrastructure, and least amount of economic disparity (and crime) are extremely un-religious countries. Consider the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries. None of what you said is valid.
What I said isn't valid if (1) these nations comprise the whole world, and (2) their systems have nothing to do with religion historically. But neither is true. I wonder where all the hatred comes from, on both silly sides.

Originally Posted by likeitaloud

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Communism is one of the most beautiful ideological visions; Total equality and complete happiness. It failed miserable in our world today, but ideologically speaking it had some brilliant ideas. Religion is indeed a narcotic of the many, because it clouds reasoning. Communism promoted intelligence and religion does nothing but step away from reasonable thought. The democratic party and liberalism also have freedom in it's roots; is that really so moronic for people to think for themselves instead of blindly following the words of a man in a big hat and a book?
Oh the irony.

Originally Posted by emptym

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What I said isn't valid if (1) these nations comprise the whole world, and (2) their systems have nothing to do with religion historically. But neither is true. I wonder where all the hatred comes from, on both silly sides.
The problem is in assuming that just because A has done B, without A nobody else would have. People do it all the time regarding hospitals, garbage collection, mail delivery etc. There is such a prejudice toward the status quo that people rarely entertain the idea that similar things could have, and likely would have, developed anyway. That isn't to say that the world would, IMO, be better without religion, just that simply stating that without religion (or the government) something would not be available doesn't take into account the whole story. Where the hatred comes from is generally the quest for control over the greatest number of lives, but you don't believe that.

Originally Posted by SField

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That's hilarious considering that some of the countries with the best health care systems, schools, infrastructure, and least amount of economic disparity (and crime) are extremely un-religious countries. Consider the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries. None of what you said is valid.

The values and moral assumptions (concern over economic disparity, health concerns, etc.. blah, blah, blah) that post religious europe holds make little sense outside of their historical context. That history being 1000 years (more or less) of Christendom. Emptym clearly addressed this in his post:

Originally Posted by emptym

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In a way, the world, particularly the West, is far less religious than it was. This is true if we measure external aspects of religion such as membership roles and church attendance.

However, in a crucial way, religion is more influential now than it ever was, since it's values have become the unquestioned values of secular society. Human life, love, self-sacrifice, fairness, honesty, service, etc. are viewed as more precious now than they were 100 or 1000 years ago, imo.


but for some reason you either ignored, misunderstood or felt it convenient to leave this part of his argument out.


EDIT: Ooops. While I was composing my opus Emptym responded so ignore the above but pleas take to heart the postscript.

ps Im not pointing this out because you are a little on the tubby side. One of my resolutions is to be more compassionate (one of those vestigal christian virtues) to those with "weight" challenges in their lives. May 2009 be a year of healthy and smart food choices for all of us!

Is this the under 12 y/o version of the already marsupialed religion threads we had in the CE? Without religion they wouldn't sell those Nuns outfits made of leather at your favourite sex shop, think about that.

Originally Posted by Fuuma

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Is this the under 12 y/o version of the already marsupialed religion threads we had in the CE? Without religion they wouldn't sell those Nuns outfits made of leather at your favourite sex shop, think about that.
No Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence?

Originally Posted by iammatt

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No Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence?


While I was getting home earlier this morning some nice man stopped his car and asked me if I wanted a ride cause I have nice lips... At least he wasn't wearing that costume.

Originally Posted by Fuuma

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Is this the under 12 y/o version of the already marsupialed religion threads we had in the CE? Without religion they wouldn't sell those Nuns outfits made of leather at your favourite sex shop, think about that.


I see that you went with ramble over pith in your choice of The Greek signature quotes.









ps choose dark green leafy vegetables over processed convenience foods.

Originally Posted by redcaimen

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I see that you went with ramble over pith in your choice of The Greek signature quotes.









ps choose dark green leafy vegetables over processed convenience foods.

I have a feeling he's trolling though, look at the grammatical structure of his rant!


ps: I'm gonna make some soup today, I'll make sure to follow your instructions.

This thread may as well be entitled "Let's reverse gravity."

Originally Posted by iammatt

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...The problem is in assuming that just because A has done B, without A nobody else would have. People do it all the time regarding hospitals, garbage collection, mail delivery etc. There is such a prejudice toward the status quo that people rarely entertain the idea that similar things could have, and likely would have, developed anyway. That isn't to say that the world would, IMO, be better without religion, just that simply stating that without religion (or the government) something would not be available doesn't take into account the whole story.
You make a good point. I'm not sure that w/o religion there wouldn't have been these things, but I would say that in the world in which we live as it has developed over time, these things came about through religion.

And you're right that plenty of these things are caused by non-religious people and institutions, but given the interdependence of things, I'm not sure how easy it is to separate where religious influence begins and where it ends. For example, believers and nonbelievers like to oppose communism and religion, for different reasons, but the many principles of Communism come from Judeo-Xn values.

Where the hatred comes from is generally the quest for control over the greatest number of lives, but you don't believe that.

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Actually, I'm sure this happens. I just don't think it's the primary cause -- of religion or the hatred for it.

Originally Posted by Manton

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This thread may as well be entitled "Let's reverse gravity."

Let's party like it's 1999?

Originally Posted by Fuuma

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While I was getting home earlier this morning some nice man stopped his car and asked me if I wanted a ride cause I have nice lips... At least he wasn't wearing that costume.
Is there no SPI chapter in Montreal? For all of their craziness, and there has been a lot, they have done a lot of good for people in the SF gay community, and especially for early sufferers of AIDS. Crazy looking people, though.

Originally Posted by emptym

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Actually, I'm sure this happens. I just don't think it's the primary cause -- of religion or the hatred for it.
I don't think it is the primary cause of religion, but I do think it is the primary cause of conflict between the secular left and religion in general.

Originally Posted by iammatt

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Is there no SPI chapter in Montreal? For all of their craziness, and there has been a lot, they have done a lot of good for people in the SF gay community, and especially for early sufferers of AIDS. Crazy looking people, though.

No, there are some in Paris though and the name sounds gayer (if that's possible) in french. My "friend" was a bourgeois-looking arabic man, no doubt participating in international terrorism by cruising for BJs in his new car.

Just because things have developed through "religion", (but moreso the power structure thereof - not the actual faith), doesn't mean that we need these things anymore. We have proof that all the social and infrastructural elements you mentioned can exist quite well without fairy tales.