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Brands that represent quality above all else

HORNS

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Yes, part of the consistency of many wines is out of the hands of humans. But look again at d'Yquem - their 2006 is stellar in a lackluster vintage. They took the time to pick only the grapes that would produce wine up to their standard. I don't have production quotas on me, but I'd be willing to bet they vary their case production from year to year as they alter yield. An exception for d'Yquem may be their '93 that seemed rushed to just make something and it wasn't up to their usual standards.

Many producers will produce wines that can vary heavily from year to year - but the best will take the time and effort to ensure a fantastic wine. Bordeaux is much less terroire based than Burgundy, yet there are always producers that will make a fantastic wine regardless of the vintage (with the washout exceptions). The 1997 Ausone may be another example, I'd argue it's the best wine out of a horrible year for St. Emillion - yet Ausone is always one of the best wines from the right bank.
There's no doubt about the mastery of some of these winemakers at creating the wines - especially a wine like d'Yquem that has another huge factor in the quality like boytritis. In my limited knowledge, that seems to be a whole other universe of winemaking - and it certainly shows in their product!

But still, you can't make great wine from mediocre grapes. Also, I was under the impression that Burgandy was more involved in the negociant system, which allows a greater variability in the quality of grapes a winemaker uses?
 

HORNS

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I'd say Miltex surgical instruments.
 

shoefan

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Originally Posted by Manton
I didn't say they were top of the ladder. I said the quality was very high.

They are, in any event, quite good enough for me, and much better than my German knives.


(To be pendantic, though I'm not trying to be argumentative), No, you did not say "the quality was very high," you simply wrote "Shun."

Now, back to the topic: if we go back to the question/premise -- "pursue quality as they define it without compromise? And by "compromise," I don't mean at any cost, but simply, given the premise of what they sell, do they cut corners?" -- I would submit that Shun do make compromises, perhaps both in terms of the metal they choose and various design features of their knives. For example, they have recently developed a line of knives based on those of custom-maker Bob Kramer -- this Shun line is currently exclusive to Sur La Table. However, compared to the custom Kramers, the Shun use different metals and I believe have a different geometry than the originals. Likewise, some of their other lines -- e.g. the Ken Onion ones -- have what I've read is terrible ergonomics, nothwithstanding their design aims.

That is not to say that the Shun knives are not good knives, because they are, and, as you note, they will usually greatly outperform the German knives.

Manton, I am surprised that you of all people, given your love of cooking and appreciation for the finer things, are willing to settle for the Shun. Have you ever tried a really well sharpened blade by one of the better makers in a high-carbon or 'white paper' or 'blue paper' steel? Awesome, and it may inspire you to go beyond the Shuns. I imagine you've visited Korin in NYC, but if not I understand it is highly recommended. Also, they offer sharpening seminars, which is helpful given that these knives must be sharpened properly in order to maximize their performance; generally speaking, they can achieve edges much sharper than those they have at purchase.

In any event, if anyone really loves to cook and is interested in getting a world class knife, don't settle for Shun without first researching the alternatives; for the same money you can get better knives. The first time you use a really sharp knife, I think it will be a revelation -- it certainly was for me. Be forewarned though: the knife fascination is a bit like stereos or perhaps clothes; it is easy to get caught up in a never-ending series of acquisitions. The good news, when you grow tired of a knife it is easy to resell and the depreciation is usually only something like 10% - 20% when it is time to sell.
 

shoefan

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Originally Posted by HORNS
There's no doubt about the mastery of some of these winemakers at creating the wines - especially a wine like d'Yquem that has another huge factor in the quality like boytritis. In my limited knowledge, that seems to be a whole other universe of winemaking - and it certainly shows in their product!

But still, you can't make great wine from mediocre grapes. Also, I was under the impression that Burgandy was more involved in the negociant system, which allows a greater variability in the quality of grapes a winemaker uses?


No doubt the site makes a huge difference, but d'Yquem does things no other producer will (to my knowledge) do. For example, in some vintages they send pickers through the vineyard up to 8 or 9 separate times to pick only individual grapes or bunches that are at the proper stage of ripeness/botrytis shrivelling.

Burgundy has historically been negotiant-driven, but many smaller growers have started vinifying and bottling their own production. As prices have gone up and the wine world has grown 'smaller' (due to the internet and various publications like Wine Spectator and Wine Advocate), the potential of high prices has made it possible for many smaller makers to pursue this path. [See also makers like Harlan Vineyards, whose wine is entirely sold off a mailing list (cutting out middleman costs) and whose bottles sell from the maker for north of $300/bottle.]
 

gomestar

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Originally Posted by shoefan
No doubt the site makes a huge difference, but d'Yquem does things no other producer will (to my knowledge) do. For example, in some vintages they send pickers through the vineyard up to 8 or 9 separate times to pick only individual grapes or bunches that are at the proper stage of ripeness/botrytis shrivelling.

Burgundy has historically been negotiant-driven, but many smaller growers have started vinifying and bottling their own production. As prices have gone up and the wine world has grown 'smaller' (due to the internet and various publications like Wine Spectator and Wine Advocate), the potential of high prices has made it possible for many smaller makers to pursue this path. [See also makers like Harlan Vineyards, whose wine is entirely sold off a mailing list (cutting out middleman costs) and whose bottles sell from the maker for north of $300/bottle.]


I agree about d'Yquem - hence why they absolutely deserve to be mentioned on this thread.

And I also agree about the negotiants in burgundy - but top quality brands are still top quality brands. You can be absolutely sure that DRC pays extremely close attention to its yield and grape quality. The same can be said for many other houses. It gets much more complicated when large houses take grapes from all over the place or don't pay as close attention to the yield - take for example a Gevrey-Chambertain where grapes just have to come from a particular village, vs. a Chambertin-Clos de Beze which is a specific vineyard (quality control is much easier at the vineyard level).

Also, I forget the exact rules, but there may be yield requirements for premier cru and grand cru designated wines.

And I'm not a fan of many overpriced California cabs (like Harlan or Bond). Regardless of their 'quality', I think there are far better wines for the price out there.
 

HORNS

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I'd also have to say Tabasco Sauce - peppers + vinegar + salt (the aging that they do) = sublime.

I'm sure there are mustards out there that are on another plane compared to others, but I'm not that familiar with them. To me, Tabasco is a treasure.
 

Manton

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My Shuns are as good as I could possibly want. I even feel sort of guilty about them, like a crappy surfer with a really nice board. All the really good chefs I know use meh knives. They would laugh at me an my Shuns. Me and some $1,000 samurai knife, forget it.
 

itsstillmatt

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Originally Posted by Manton
My Shuns are as good as I could possibly want. I even feel sort of guilty about them, like a crappy surfer with a really nice board. All the really good chefs I know use meh knives. They would laugh at me an my Shuns. Me and some $1,000 samurai knife, forget it.
I agree. I cannot understand why anybody would find a need for the world's highest quality knife. At some level, you are no longer paying for the knife-ness of the object, and have started paying for something else altogether.
 

voxsartoria

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I just use the Au Carbone line from Sabbatier. The shapes are nice, and what they lack in ultimate sharpness and persistence of edge, they gain in ease of steeling.

I can see the fascination with more refined knives, though.


- B
 

itsstillmatt

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Originally Posted by voxsartoria
I just use the Au Carbone line from Sabbatier. The shapes are nice, and what they lack in ultimate sharpness and persistence of edge, they gain in ease of steeling.

I can see the fascination with more refined knives, though.


- B

I have the same. Still the best knives in my mind.
 

itsstillmatt

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Originally Posted by voxsartoria
Anyone here have Longmire cufflinks?

- B

One pair. Nice. Seaman Schepps is nice too, and goes on without compromise.
 

shoefan

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The older Carbone knives are very highly regarded; I believe there are also some newer ones which are made from NOS forged blanks. Moreover, the Au Carbone knives are a relative bargain.

One issue with these knives is that, due to their metallurgy, they cannot be sharpened to as fine an edge as can other types of steel, plus their edge will tend to degrade faster. Yes, they certainly can be sharpened easily, which is a big help, but the blade geometry and metallurgy means they will not attain the levels to which some aspire, nor will they hold an edge for nearly as long as the Japanese knives.

Some chefs do use Japanese knives, and a trend of increasing use has certainly been notable over the last few years. However, in general chefs have to cut for hours each day and have associates who may (mis)use the knives and not know how to sharpen properly, so the 'best' knife for a chef may not be the same as for a devoted home cook.

All I can say is: find a really sharp knife and use it, then you be the judge as to what knife you would like to use. I cook alot, and I have a variety of German and French knives. Plus, my sharpening skills are pretty good (but still improving), since to make shoes one needs really sharp knives. The few Japanese knives I so far have used completely demolish the European ones.

Yes there are knives which are noteworthy for their beauty as well as their performance -- for example the Hattori KD line ($$$$). However, what I am suggesting is that, for the same price as Shun -- still definitely not cheap -- one can do better than Shun. Unlike, say, a beveled waist on a bespoke shoe, which many of us seem to appreciated despite the absence of functional benefit, these knives can be appreciated for their superior performance.
 

voxsartoria

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Originally Posted by shoefan
Yes there are knives which are noteworthy for their beauty as well as their performance -- for example the Hattori KD line ($$$$). However, what I am suggesting is that, for the same price as Shun -- still definitely not cheap -- one can do better than Shun. Unlike, say, a beveled waist on a bespoke shoe, which many of us seem to appreciated despite the absence of functional benefit, these knives can be appreciated for their superior performance.

Okay, if I stray into this territory, what do I get rather than a Shun? Let's say a 10" chef.


- B
 

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